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Reconciliation

By:Dwimordene
 May, 4 2007

A journal for discussion of the story "Reconciliation."

   ~~~

Just what the hook says. I will try actually to reply to any comments in this journal.


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60 replies


 [11] You can't blame us for getting impatient! And the situation's only gotten worse, as Pel and Elya seem to be alienating pretty much everyone in Ch. 5 - not that Celdir's crew's favor is any great loss. In fact, I hope that it helps with P & E's attempts at reconciliation with Andrahar. But, not nice of Pel to push off Aldan and pull that lordly tone... I have to keep reminding myself that he's a very young man in a nearly impossible situation.

Master Harthil - brrrrr. He sounds like bad news. I had the image of a snake in mind throughout the entire passage, and am hoping we get a little more on his work for the Prince? Spying?

Did the officers leave that packet in Pel and Elya's folios in the thought that Andrahar would read it, and thus get the background to the year that P & E have faced?

Poor Pel, from the ending it still sounds like he doesn't know quite where he stands with regards to Andrahar and his origins. And I have no idea where Elya is on any of it. Is he torn like Pel? Or is he of a mind with Celdir, but is yet trying to avoid that bunch due to the backlash their association provides? I'm still pretty worried about him, and hoping that the chapter title isn't making even deeper allusions.

A tiny question: When did Pel give Elya his Yule present?

Denise
Posted:May 25, 2007 05:10 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [12] Oops, I realized that I misspoke a bit on my comment about Master Harthil. I could imagine him as a spy in his youth; now I wonder if he runs the Prince's intelligence network.

Denise
Posted:May 25, 2007 19:01 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [13] Yikes, I hope El doesn't die to soon. And I get the feeling we've just me Elphir's pre-decessor as the captain of Dol-Amroths spy network (agreeing with Denise, you posted that as I typed this) either that or he's an assasin.

"A tiny question: When did Pel give Elya his Yule present?"

That flute I think. Or at least that was the plan.

Poor Everyone, they all seem to be having a tough time, Andra doesn't know what he's doing, but does quite well at resisting the temptation to prie, wether or not he's atually meant too. Maybe the tutors had a slight oversight as to his sense of honour regarding personnal info?

Pel is opening his mouth only to change feet these days and El is worriedley depressed by it all.

Imrahil does his best to help out but is in it over his head.

Me-thinks everyone is expecting a lot from a group of 20/21 year old lads (I think that's the right sort of age) theyre all expecting them to be adult enough to sort themselves out but they need a bit of help along the way.

I have a few questions of my own?

Where do you find the translation of Andrahar's name, I stuck in Dragonflame a whileback and got nothing like that (although maybe that's because it's Haradric?

What's a clothes press? (I didn't say they where INTELLIGENT questions)

I like Bhraina, do we see more of him/her?

Loving this as always

Nargil

Nargil
Posted:May 25, 2007 19:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [14] Hi Denise,

Thanks for commenting! (Was that your anonymous review?)

Pel and Elya seem to be alienating pretty much everyone in Ch. 5 - not that Celdir's crew's favor is any great loss. In fact, I hope that it helps with P & E's attempts at reconciliation with Andrahar.

Karma works in mysterious ways, but not immediately.

But, not nice of Pel to push off Aldan and pull that lordly tone... I have to keep reminding myself that he's a very young man in a nearly impossible situation.

Something has to give when one is under stress, and Gondor is a hierarchical society. However much the Swan Knights may try to level things, I figure there will always be incidents like this, to say nothing of people like Valyon or Celdir who simply give their common-born peers a bit of a cold shoulder whenever they feel like not dealing with them.

Re: Harthil - eventually more will be said about him.

Did the officers leave that packet in Pel and Elya's folios in the thought that Andrahar would read it, and thus get the background to the year that P & E have faced?

If they did, that pretty much foundered on the rock of virtuous integrity. Oft virtue mars virtue or something?

I have no idea where Elya is on any of it. Is he torn like Pel? Or is he of a mind with Celdir, but is yet trying to avoid that bunch due to the backlash their association provides?

During the redrafting of this story, I ended up giving Elethil a less conflicted dislike of Andrahar, which is aggravated by his own painful situation. Left alone, he would respond to his sense of guilt in a more obvious fashion (and he's as incredulous as Peloren about Celdir's reaction to their crime); feeling unfairly harried by everybody, his dislike gets channeled into a line of thinking that leads him to blame Andrahar for his own unfair predicament, even though he in some sense knows that that reaction is in itself unfair. He just doesn't have the energy to deal with it, and has always been on the timid side of any social relationship.

When did Pel give Elya his Yule present?

Not yet, actually. Drunkenness plus first week has conspired to make them both forget about that sort of concern - they just need to survive.

Dwim


Posted:May 25, 2007 19:18 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [15] Thank you for all your answers, Dwim - even the ambiguous non-answers! *g*

No, I haven't left any anonymous comments/reviews anywhere, that I'm aware of. But I can sympathize with the midnight haunter of your journal. ;)

I think what probably worries myself (and perhaps Nargil and others) the most is your healthy ability to kill off completely lovely characters. So I try to brace myself, not knowing what is really coming around the corner...

Denise
Posted:May 25, 2007 22:30 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [16] Hi Nargil!

I get the feeling we've just me Elphir's pre-decessor as the captain of Dol-Amroths spy network (agreeing with Denise, you posted that as I typed this) either that or he's an assasin.

As noted, you'll get more on him later that will enable you to test your hypothesis.

Poor Everyone, they all seem to be having a tough time, Andra doesn't know what he's doing... Pel is opening his mouth only to change feet these days and El is worriedley depressed by it all.

Imrahil does his best to help out but is in it over his head.

Me-thinks everyone is expecting a lot from a group of 20/21 year old lads (I think that's the right sort of age) theyre all expecting them to be adult enough to sort themselves out but they need a bit of help along the way.


Everyone is in over their heads, including the masters. The age thing is an interesting question for me. I assume that although the Gondorians have a more prolonged childhood, they are of age, and they are old enough to fight and die for their country, as well as, should their parents die, become the effective rulers of their fiefs (well, those of them who are their families' heirs). They live in a society where most people do backbreaking labor most of their lives just to survive, and where, adult or not, you're doing an adult's work by the time you're fifteen, most likely. To me, that suggests that a 21 year-old can be placed under more and more serious obligations than a 21 year-old in the modern world. Granted, the esquires are not as mature as they might be, but they're mature enough to be expected to try to act like adults.

Of course, even the adults are not doing so well in this scenario...

Where do you find the translation of Andrahar's name

I made it up. To my knowledge, Isabeau has never said what it means, or that it means anything at all. But it's definitely not Sindarin or any derivative of Sindarin; it's Haradric.

What's a clothes press?

Clothespress.

I like Bhraina, do we see more of him/her?

Bhraina does appear in later chapters, though Andrahar's horse doesn't have nearly as much personality as Peloren's does. Bhraina just doesn't have the sort of importance for Andrahar's affective life that Lightfall does for Peloren's.

Thanks for your comments, and I'm glad you're enjoying the story!

Dwim


Posted:May 25, 2007 23:32 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [17] I think what probably worries myself (and perhaps Nargil and others) the most is your healthy ability to kill off completely lovely characters.

I just do what the story logic demands. Sometimes, it demands character death.

And it does keep readers from taking anything for granted! >:-E

Dwim


Posted:May 25, 2007 23:41 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [18] Everyone is in over their heads, including the masters. The age thing is an interesting question for me. I assume that although the Gondorians have a more prolonged childhood, they are of age, and they are old enough to fight and die for their country, as well as, should their parents die, become the effective rulers of their fiefs (well, those of them who are their families' heirs). They live in a society where most people do backbreaking labor most of their lives just to survive, and where, adult or not, you're doing an adult's work by the time you're fifteen, most likely. To me, that suggests that a 21 year-old can be placed under more and more serious obligations than a 21 year-old in the modern world. Granted, the esquires are not as mature as they might be, but they're mature enough to be expected to try to act like adults.

I second this. The Haradrim let twelve-year-olds join the army, and Andrahar was certainly considered a man grown at sixteen when he encountered Imrahil. I've never established a formal age of majority in Gondor, but informally I think there is an expectation that by the time you are sixteen you are starting to assume a man's place-by eighteen definitely. You can enlist in the Gondorian army at sixteen.

Idren, in Lossarnach Yule, is only fourteen, but as the sole man of the house is expected to begin acting as such. He lives in a rural community and I suspect that there adulthood comes a bit earlier than among the nobility. But even among the high and mighty you don't have the sort of protracted childhood we have today-an eighteen-year-old might be considered to be a clueless adult with little real experience, but adult he is and expected to act as such in most matters. Brand is only fourteen as well, but he is beginning to move into the adult world.

Where do you find the translation of Andrahar's name

I made it up. To my knowledge, Isabeau has never said what it means, or that it means anything at all. But it's definitely not Sindarin or any derivative of Sindarin; it's Haradric.


I never said what it meant, but I like this perfectly well. Since most Gondorians think all Haradrim are the bad guys and Andra is working for the good guys, it's rather fitting.

Bhraina does appear in later chapters, though Andrahar's horse doesn't have nearly as much personality as Peloren's does. Bhraina just doesn't have the sort of importance for Andrahar's affective life that Lightfall does for Peloren's.

Or anywhere near as much personality as his later mount Rahur. But there's such a thing as too much personality!

Isabeau
Posted:May 26, 2007 09:30 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [19] But even among the high and mighty you don't have the sort of protracted childhood we have today-an eighteen-year-old might be considered to be a clueless adult with little real experience, but adult he is and expected to act as such in most matters. Brand is only fourteen as well, but he is beginning to move into the adult world.

I think there's the training element to consider in this as well. The knights represent a certain ideal - the gentleman or lordly warrior. The Swan Knights are not simply there to impart information or techniques of battle - they are an institution that aims to form character along certain lines. So they demand a lot of their esquires - both in terms of their bearing up to hardship approximating war, but also in terms of their maintaining themselves as aiming at a certain lordly ideal that demands that they be more than merely efficient killers.

I never said what it meant, but I like this perfectly well. Since most Gondorians think all Haradrim are the bad guys and Andra is working for the good guys, it's rather fitting.

I figure it's also fitting for his personality in general. He is a pilgrim in many ways - caught between (at least) two worlds, trying to find rest in something he can claim and be claimed by and that responds to his sense of what is right.

Or anywhere near as much personality as his later mount Rahur. But there's such a thing as too much personality!

I now have to wonder just how hard Peloren was laughing into his hand at Andrahar's expense when Rahur eventually came along. It's kind of an amusing thought... *fling nuzgul in Isabeau's direction*

Dwim


Posted:May 27, 2007 20:04 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [20] I now have to wonder just how hard Peloren was laughing into his hand at Andrahar's expense when Rahur eventually came along. It's kind of an amusing thought... *fling nuzgul in Isabeau's direction*

*Diving for protective gear and lacrosse stick* And here I am, trying to finish a chapter for Ultimatums...


Posted:May 28, 2007 12:44 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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