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Princes of Dol Amroth

By:Isabeau
 February, 25 2006

Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.


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292 replies


 [81] Nargil wrote: Isn't Denethor dead at this point, the swan knights are on thier way home after the war?

Yes, you're absolutely right. I guess I was thinking of why Imrahil hadn't used the King's House in the past. It might be that there's a garrison there who are using the place to capacity and there's simply not room.

Likeing the new chapter of kin-strife BTW.

Glad you enjoyed it. I was very happy to finally break that particular logjam.


Posted:Mar 22, 2006 19:08 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [82] Denise wrote: Could it have something to do with the fighting that took place in Pelargir, when Aragorn took over the Corsair fleet? It was months ago, but the King's House could very well have been a major target...

I like that idea too.

Which reminds me: I don't remember Tolkien ever saying anything about the disposition of the Gondor/Dol Amroth fleet during the Ring War. Do you and Altariel have thoughts about where Erchirion and the other captains were during that time?

Ouch. I was pondering that just the other day-little guy was watching the ROTK extended edition for the kazillionth time, and I was watching all those towns on the river burn and thinking "Where was Dol Amroth's navy?" Of course, Dol Amroth's rather extensive navy is my invention and not Tolkien's, but still, you'd think Gondor would have something of a navy, what with the old tradition of Numenorean naval superiority and it's never mentioned in the books.

The only thing I can figure is that the Corsairs came in such strength, a veritable Corsair Armada, that Dol Amroth's navy was not able to stop them. I suspect that the best Erchirion could accomplish was to winnow the numbers down somewhat. He probably did what he could against the impossible odds, got soundly trounced and had to withdraw to protect Dol Amroth itself, poor fellow. It's a wonder he survived to visit with his cousin after the war.

Maybe if I re-read enough Forester and O'Brien I'll address that some day.



Posted:Mar 22, 2006 19:21 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [83] I liked the latest chapter of Kin-Strife, Isabeau. I realize that many years passed between the time of this story, and the time of Last Rites/CMC/Silver Swan, so any number of things could have occurred that soured Andrahar's view of Thorongil/Aragorn. Obviously the fact that he'd had to somewhat coerce Thorongil into healing Imrahil would set Andrahar up to view Thorongil with some misgiving, but he seems to have overcome that by Chapter 12 of Kin-Strife, and now we've got Imrahil reflecting on how easy Thorongil and Andrahar are in each other's company.

So what I'm wondering about is whether Imrahil ever reveals to Andrahar that he long knew Thorongil's true identity. If he did so I'm guessing it would only be after Aragorn was known to all in Minas Tirith as the returned King, because Imrahil would keep his sworn word, of course. But would the fact that Thorongil had asked Imrahil to tell no one, thus creating a secret kept from Andrahar, cause Andrahar to dislike or mistrust him once he discovered that there had been such a secret? It occurs to me that Andrahar might possibly take grave offense on one of two fronts: firstly, that Thorongil didn't trust him with the secret (impugning his honor), and secondly that Thorongil's identity became a secret that Imrahil kept from him.

I'm just wondering why Andrahar let Aragorn know that he would never swear fealty to him, and Aragorn took that rebuff in stride, almost as if he deserved it. I can understand that Andrahar was still in the first throes of grief about Boromir... but it seems a bit too extreme to hold that as reason enough to refuse to swear fealty, since in Last Rites Andrahar seemed to realize that Boromir had doomed himself when he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Just trying to get a sense of where Andrahar is coming from. He *is* relatively easy in Kin-Strife with Thorongil, right? If you're not ready to reveal what passes that changes Andrahar's opinion of Thorongil/Aragorn, that's fine. I just want to make sure I understand what we know so far about that relationship.

Thanks!

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 25, 2006 13:55 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [84] Rebecca wrote: So what I'm wondering about is whether Imrahil ever reveals to Andrahar that he long knew Thorongil's true identity.

No, he doesn't. However, Andra is no fool, and something happens in Kin-strife that gives him the idea that Thorongil is a more important person than Imrahil lets on, which he already suspects given Thorongil's significant place in Imrahil's visions.

If he did so I'm guessing it would only be after Aragorn was known to all in Minas Tirith as the returned King, because Imrahil would keep his sworn word, of course. But would the fact that Thorongil had asked Imrahil to tell no one, thus creating a secret kept from Andrahar, cause Andrahar to dislike or mistrust him once he discovered that there had been such a secret? It occurs to me that Andrahar might possibly take grave offense on one of two fronts: firstly, that Thorongil didn't trust him with the secret (impugning his honor), and secondly that Thorongil's identity became a secret that Imrahil kept from him.

I think you are right on both counts there. Poor Andra-at that point in time it must have semed that everyone was trying to come between him and Imrahil.

I'm just wondering why Andrahar let Aragorn know that he would never swear fealty to him, and Aragorn took that rebuff in stride, almost as if he deserved it. I can understand that Andrahar was still in the first throes of grief about Boromir... but it seems a bit too extreme to hold that as reason enough to refuse to swear fealty, since in Last Rites Andrahar seemed to realize that Boromir had doomed himself when he tried to take the ring from Frodo.

It is true that Andrahar doesn't hold Boromir blameless in the matter of his own death, but I think there's also a sense that Aragorn failed as a commander, and while the blame is not entirely his either, a significant part of it falls to him because he was in command of the Fellowship at the time. I think Andrahar believes that Aragorn failed Boromir, that he should have known Boromir was being affected by the Ring and kept a closer watch on him. Andrahar takes responsibility for the actions of his men. A good commander does not put his men into situations where they will be tempted into wrong behavior. A good commander gives his men the encouragement they need to prevail. And a good commander certainly doesn't do something like let the defenseless hobbit who is carrying the object the Enemy seeks above all else go wandering off alone into a possibly orc-infested wilderness just because he wants some time to think!

Of course, I'm a bit biased here. I go back and re-read FOTR and think poor Boromir definitely got shafted. The man had good ideas and did his damnedest to contribute, only to get disregarded at every turn. After Gandalf is gone, Aragorn's performance is one of one bone-headed decision after another, when he is able to make decisions at all-nearly running them into the rapids of Sarn Gebir leaps to mind. Now whether this is because he's grieving Gandalf or trying to come to terms with the king thing, the fact of the matter is he doesn't really start hitting his stride until TTT.

He *is* relatively easy in Kin-Strife with Thorongil, right?

Right. After all, most of this has not occurred yet, and he and Thorongil do have a lot in common in some ways.

If you're not ready to reveal what passes that changes Andrahar's opinion of Thorongil/Aragorn, that's fine. I just want to make sure I understand what we know so far about that relationship.

There will probably be further developments, some of which I'm not sure of yet myself. And there's one thing they do together which I'm not ready to discuss yet. But I think you have the gist of the basis of his dislike.

Isabeau
Posted:Mar 25, 2006 14:40 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [85] I think Andrahar believes that Aragorn failed Boromir, that he should have known Boromir was being affected by the Ring and kept a closer watch on him.

Yes, that is true. And yet, at the same time I think there was an embedded problem with the Fellowship from the start -- all of the members to one extent or another wanted the ring. Or, rather, perhaps they differed not so much in their desire for it, but rather in their ability to combat that desire, or to recognize it as the threat it was.

While I totally agree about bone-headed moves by Aragorn, I think I always assumed (without having really thought about it until now) that his hands-off approach towards the other members of the fellowship, even Boromir, was a function of his own battle against the pull of the ring. The ring is all about wanting power, and if you're fighting against that craving it would be hard to, at the same time, exert power over others. Gandalf was up to that task, but I think it was too much for the others. I don't think it's a coincidence that Aragorn's good leadership skills didn't surface until after the ring passed out of his presence.

Andrahar takes responsibility for the actions of his men. A good commander does not put his men into situations where they will be tempted into wrong behavior. A good commander gives his men the encouragement they need to prevail. And a good commander certainly doesn't do something like let the defenseless hobbit who is carrying the object the Enemy seeks above all else go wandering off alone into a possibly orc-infested wilderness just because he wants some time to think!

Very true. And one cannot expect Andrahar to conceive of just how powerful the ring was -- that it overcame Boromir's decency and integrity was not indicative of Boromir's weakness but rather how irresistable the ring was. So if Andrahar was disappointed in Boromir's failing, of course he'd judge Aragorn's failings in an equally harsh light, uncomprehending the truly overwhelming power they were up against?

I go back and re-read FOTR and think poor Boromir definitely got shafted. The man had good ideas and did his damnedest to contribute, only to get disregarded at every turn.

Yes, I never liked that either. It's part of my dislike of the way that Men always get shafted in the final analysis in Tolkien's world. Aragorn, raised among the Elves, is "better" than Boromir, product of an entirely mortal culture ... perhaps that's not what Tolkien intended. And that's another discussion, anyway. But looking at the context of the Fellowship, and Boromir's ideas being disregarded, assuming for the moment that my interpretation is correct about the effect of the continuous, private battle against the ring that each member of the Fellowship was engaged in, I wonder if Boromir's clear lust for the ring made the others just wary of him overall. Unfair, but inevitable. They weren't going to overtly confront him about his intentions unless it became absolutely necessary. But once you start to doubt someone's intentions, it's hard to take any of their suggestions -- even the obviously good ones! -- without skepticism.

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 25, 2006 15:25 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [86] Andra doesn't go to Harad with Thorongil does he, you said he would be busy while imrahil is in Edhellond and now you mention it again?

Also any news on the story you said you where writing with Altariel back in the monster thread?

Nargil
Posted:Mar 25, 2006 16:34 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [87] Nargil asked-Andra doesn't go to Harad with Thorongil does he, you said he would be busy while imrahil is in Edhellond and now you mention it again?

Actually, he does.

Also any news on the story you said you where writing with Altariel back in the monster thread?

No further developments on that front yet. Hopefully soon.


Posted:Mar 25, 2006 23:41 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [88] Cool, do we see any more of his family?

Also do we get to see both sets of adventures, Imri in Edhellond and Andra in Harad or only one, makes the idea of Andra hating Aragorn even more strange. Though I understand why, Aragorn should have attended leadership skills lessons, or at least remember the ones he did attend. Then again he is a king, what they say goes, unless your Andra of course.

Nargil
Posted:Mar 26, 2006 09:06 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [89] Nargil/Isabeau:

Also any news on the story you said you where writing with Altariel back in the monster thread?

No further developments on that front yet. Hopefully soon.


The delay on this is entirely my fault, Nargil. But from tomorrow I am free of all teaching commitments - yippee! - and can turn my mind to more pleasant pursuits!

Altariel
Posted:Mar 26, 2006 09:33 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [90] Altariel wrote-The delay on this is entirely my fault, Nargil. But from tomorrow I am free of all teaching commitments - yippee! - and can turn my mind to more pleasant pursuits!

Welcome back, short stuff!


Posted:Mar 26, 2006 10:11 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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