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Princes of Dol Amroth

By:Isabeau
 February, 25 2006

Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.


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292 replies


 [41] I was rereading Kin-Strife in eager anticipation (*grins*) and wondered about a few things. But please finish the new chapter first!!

When did Imrahil actually fall for Gildor? Does Gildor visit Dol Amroth very often (since a previous answer indicated that Imrahil had not spent time in Edhelland until after K-S)? Andra thinks of Imrahil's infatuation with Gildor in Ch 1, and Imrahil mentions that “informative little talk” with Gildor about love between men in Ch 7.

Aerandir and Eilinel – do we see their children (Imrahil’s half-cousins) anywhere? You have wonderful glimpses of different levels of Gondoran society in your stories, and I guess I'm wondering how men/women with high-born blood but a base-born father would fare.

After Imhiriel's comments on the numbering of Minas Tirith's levels (CMC thread) I noticed that Andrahar and Thorongil walk out of the Citadel into the second circle of the city after the Swan Knight/City Guard match-up (Ch. 4), and Colhammad’s is “down” in the fifth circle in Ch. 6.

I think I can place all the scenes in Imrahil’s fit/dream at the tailor shop, except one: "a young man with grave grey eyes being slapped upon the back by an older young man with a much more cheerful mien." Who/where/when? If this is Heth who is the man? Or is it Halaran and his friend?

I love this little foreshadowing dearly... Finduilas tells Imrahil (Ch. 8): “I hope I live to see the day you fall for some little sprig half your age - I’ll never let you live it down!” She’ll undoubtedly be waiting for him on the other side with a wicked grin and an eternity of ribbing prepared. :)

I never noticed this before, but Imrahil seems to know who Thorongil really is after waking, or at least that he is other than he seems. But I guess we'll find out more in upcoming chapters! (Yay!)

Denise
Posted:Mar 8, 2006 19:09 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [42] "a young man with grave grey eyes being slapped upon the back by an older young man with a much more cheerful mien." Who/where/when? If this is Heth who is the man? Or is it Halaran and his friend?

Funny, I always thought this was Faramir and Boromir...

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 8, 2006 23:46 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [43] Funny, I always thought this was Faramir and Boromir...

Of course! Duh... He wouldn't know them yet. Thanks for the clarifier!

Denise
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 02:06 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [44] Nargil wrote: Questions from Ultimatums chpter 12: Do we ever meet / here more about Andra's other lovers?

Haven't decided yet. There aren't many, maybe one or two.

Pepper sauce as in chillie peppers or as in black pepper?

Probably some kind of chili pepper-I think I said in an earlier chapter that he was always on the lookout for the little hot ones.

Did Adrahil know about the menue as well as wanting to proove the decision from earlier or was it just happy chance?

Just happy chance.

Is the Haradrim food bassed on a particular culture or is it a mix?

I'm thinking it's sort of a Middle-Eastern/Indian sort of thing. There's variation in the cuisine from place to place.

I did also wonder if Nimrien was thinking along those lines but not so imediatley, I also thought Andra was serious at first, had he and Nimrien planned it he seemed to have it all worked out or is he just fast on his feet?

No, it wasn't planned. He's just fast on his feet. And possessed of an evil sense of humor.


Posted:Mar 9, 2006 03:45 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [45] Denise wrote: When did Imrahil actually fall for Gildor?

Early on, when he was about fourteen, and just waking up to sex in general.

Does Gildor visit Dol Amroth very often (since a previous answer indicated that Imrahil had not spent time in Edhelland until after K-S)?

Gildor visits every now and again. I'll have to go back and clarify things, because I think that Imrahil has been to Edhellond once or twice, just not for any extended length of time.

Andra thinks of Imrahil's infatuation with Gildor in Ch 1, and Imrahil mentions that “informative little talk” with Gildor about love between men in Ch 7.

I think that probably happens when Imrahil is about fourteen. He's not the first Prince of Dol Amroth to obsess on Gildor, and Gildor may have decided over the years that it's best to be up front about these things.

Aerandir and Eilinel – do we see their children (Imrahil’s half-cousins) anywhere? You have wonderful glimpses of different levels of Gondoran society in your stories, and I guess I'm wondering how men/women with high-born blood but a base-born father would fare.

That's one of many things I've not decided yet, but I've never imagined a son for them, so perhaps they have a couple of girls. If that's the case, I'm sure Adrahil made sure they were dowered properly if they wanted to marry.

After Imhiriel's comments on the numbering of Minas Tirith's levels (CMC thread) I noticed that Andrahar and Thorongil walk out of the Citadel into the second circle of the city after the Swan Knight/City Guard match-up (Ch. 4), and Colhammad’s is “down” in the fifth circle in Ch. 6.

One of these days I'll get that right....

I think I can place all the scenes in Imrahil’s fit/dream at the tailor shop, except one: "a young man with grave grey eyes being slapped upon the back by an older young man with a much more cheerful mien." Who/where/when? If this is Heth who is the man? Or is it Halaran and his friend?

As Rebecca pointed out, they're Faramir and Boromir.

I love this little foreshadowing dearly... Finduilas tells Imrahil (Ch. 8): “I hope I live to see the day you fall for some little sprig half your age - I’ll never let you live it down!” She’ll undoubtedly be waiting for him on the other side with a wicked grin and an eternity of ribbing prepared. :)

You've got to know that's the case. And she and Nimrien both have had that eternity....


Posted:Mar 9, 2006 04:03 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [46] I love this little foreshadowing dearly...

Very clever, Denise! I do believe you managed to "crack the case." ;) My hat is off to you!

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 08:08 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [47] You know, I was thinking some more about Denethor, Finduilas, and Tirathiel. I like the interaction between D&T that originated, it seems, with Soledad. I get the sense that the Iron Lady is very very perceptive, and I'm wondering if perhaps, in addition to her duty to her newly orphaned niece, Tirathiel pulled away from the possibility of marrying Denethor because she sensed that he had, well, issues.

The two of them are each other's intellectual match -- and that's saying something! And while most very smart people would probably prefer the company of another very clever person -- gets boring if people don't get your joking obscure references to ancient Numenorean sea shanties -- I've observed that some very smart men who have some deep-rooted insecurities don't like to be challenged intellectually by women, even though they're very confident about their brains. A bit of witty banter, sure. But someone who doesn't defer to them ultimately, no. I wonder if Tirathiel foresaw such a problem with Denethor?

Because it does seem strange that she would have to forego what would have been a brilliant marriage for her, given her family's straights, just because her niece fell into her care. Why couldn't Tirathiel have moved with young Nimrien to Minas Tirith and married Denethor -- was there some obstacle that I wasn't aware of? Or is it possible that, as I'm guessing, Tirathiel pulled away from Denethor and Nimrien was an excellent, face-saving reason for doing so?

Thinking further along the story arc, I'm wondering to what extent, if at all, Tirathiel anticipated the difficulties Finduilas encountered with Denethor? Would she have seen D's marriage to a much-younger woman as a confirmation of her sense that he needed to be able to dominate his partner?

Also, did Finduilas know of T&D's nascent courtship? If so, did she feel any guilt or doubts about marrying Denethor herself?

Sorry for throwing all these ponderings into one post but they're all inter-related. I guess I'm ultimately wondering if Tirathiel guessed at Finduilas's problems but kept silent about them because she feared that, from her, a suggestion that things weren't so rosy between F&D would sound like schadenfreude, or at least residual bitterness?

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 09:14 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [48] Little chillie peppers are EVIL, my cousin talked me into trying one once and it nearly blew my brains out.

As for the Minas Tirith numbers I always thought it depended on where you live, those who live in the citadle count that as level 1 (so this would be Imrahil as well) but those who live in the first circle count that as one, in the middle people it probably depends on wether they see themselves as uper or lower class.

I always thought the vision was of two of Imrahil's sons the serious one was Amrothos and the elder was either Elphir or Erchirion, the movie corupted me into thinking of Faramir and Boromir as blond, although I never imagined Boromir with black hair, it was always dark brown but Faramir's was black.

Yet another question, Why did Elphir not write to Imrahil about Brand, he wouldn't have known about him looking like Boromir but even so by the time Andra is bringing him to Swan knight meetings he must be quite well in?

Nargil
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 09:59 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [49] Denise: I love this little foreshadowing dearly...

Rebecca: Very clever, Denise! I do believe you managed to "crack the case." ;) My hat is off to you!

I did?!? Do you mean the Elrohir/Imrahil debate? Because I don't think the foreshadowing is definitive about anything except Imrahil falling for Hethlin. (And I didn't mean to imply otherwise!) Even if he doesn't hook up with Heth in the end, I was sure that "Fin" would be a good big sister and ride him mercilessly about his attraction to someone young enough to be his granddaughter.

(Note to Isabeau: If Heth is not for Imrahil, let me restate the fervent wish that he does find someone to bring him happiness. Angst makes for good reading, but Imrahil deserves a break by the end!)

Denise
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 14:16 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [50]  I don't think the foreshadowing is definitive about anything except Imrahil falling for Hethlin. (And I didn't mean to imply otherwise!) Even if he doesn't hook up with Heth in the end, I was sure that "Fin" would be a good big sister and ride him mercilessly about his attraction to someone young enough to be his granddaughter.

Ohhhh, I see. Sorry, my mistake -- from the questions you were asking about Hethlin's possible daughter, etc., I got the sense that you were sifting through the "past" and "future" of the time described in CMC/Silver Swan for signs that Hethlin was destined to be a part of Imrahil's future. And it looked like you'd finally gotten confirmation of that! But you're right, now that I re-read what you said, and Isabeau's reply, that's just one possibility. And of course, we all know that Hethlin is part of his future, regardless of whether they actually end up together.

I kind of get the sense that Isabeau isn't being coy with us, that she hasn't worked out an elaborate storyline well in advance that she's just feeding us slowly, piece by piece. Her stories feel like they evolve with the characters, that the characters are not necessarily on a pre-ordained trajectory where every chapter just connects the dots to an ending that was known from the start. Perhaps I'm wrong about the way Isabeau writes, but I like the sense that things are more open-ended. I think it makes the stories more interesting! I don't like it when authors strew their writing with Big Hints About Future Developments, as the plot's direction is often painfully obvious without the Significant Foreshadowing. Don't find that in Isabeau's stuff, fortunately.

If Heth is not for Imrahil, let me restate the fervent wish that he does find someone to bring him happiness. Angst makes for good reading, but Imrahil deserves a break by the end!

Amen to that!

Rebecca
Posted:Mar 9, 2006 20:51 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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