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Princes of Dol Amroth
February, 25 2006
Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.
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 I think Hethlin did match Eowyn's bravery by not only confronting the Witch King but refusing him, even when she was terrified and knew her life was forfeit in doing so. And I can't help but see a difference too, in that Eowyn's courageous actions took place when she was, in a sense, seeking suicide herself - albeit in a more active fashion than Finduilas. I'm not sure how things would have turned out for any of them if their places had been switched. (Although I have a pretty high opinion of Hethlin, and I'd better not speculate on it with my strong bias!)
You know, I hesitated as I was writing that part about Eowyn's bravery exceeding Hethlin's. "Is that really what I think?" I wondered. Because I like Eowyn well enough, but I really like Hethlin, and I'm much more interested in her outcome than I am in Eowyn's, for the reasons we've gone back and forth on in other discussions. ;)
But I do think that Eowyn's courage in that one instance was braver than anything that Hethlin has done to date. The reason being that Eowyn actively chose to go into battle. And she actively chose to challenge the Witch King to one-on-one combat. Yes, Hethlin also resisted the Witch King, but she had no choice about getting into that situation in the first place. She didn't wake in the middle of the night with a strange sensation and think "hm, I better investigate this." She was pulled against her will to confront the Witch King. I don't question Hethlin's character and strength -- a lesser person in her shoes might well have capitulated. But as far as the Witch King goes, I think Eowyn takes the prize.
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 17:25 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Hi all-
This is a fascinating conversation. I think all the participants have brought up some good points. Finduilas is a character I'm sort of ambivalent about, which makes it difficult for me to write her, which was part of the problem with Ultimatums and Kin-stife I think. I'm watching the conversation, but I'm also trying to finish the next chapter of Kin-strife, so I might be quiet for the next little bit. Other thanReparations, everything has been a real slog lately, but I've got about two-thirds of a chapter, and if I can just twist the muse's arm, perhaps I can get the rest.
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 20:00 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Rebecca wrote: But I do think that Eowyn's courage in that one instance was braver than anything that Hethlin has done to date.
Hmmm... I think this will end up being one of those things we agree to disagree about. Please don't get me wrong - I definitely think that Eowyn was brave in facing the Witch King alone (with one little hobbit to aid her right at the end). But I think the crux for me is that she rode to battle in despair, seeking death, with no hope for herself or her future. Such a disregard for one's own self promotes a certain recklessness, which in a sense makes it easier to say, "Come on, you &%$*#@! Do your best - I'm ready to die!" Whereas Heth was injured and battle-worn, and heart-sore over Faramir's injury, but not in the depths of despair. To me, she faced the consequences with clearer eyes, and was not ready to seek her own death, and that would have made her decision to defy the WK harder.
This is, needless to say, my own very very humble opinion - though I think enough of it to foist it off on everyone else! Not having faced any situation with even remotely the same level of horror and fear, my analysis of the difference in their circumstances may be totally full of it. Plus, would both outcomes have been the same if their situations were reversed? My tendency is to say yes.
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 21:05 GMT Reply to this Comment
 You know, this is wholly another subject, but I thought I'd pass along something that I just learned. I noticed that the comments were stuck in italics mode again, so when I typed up my comment I tried putting an "end italics" tag right at the beginning of it. It looks like the comment number stayed italicized, but my comment came out like I wanted ("selectively italicized"). It would be nice if this is really a fix for HTML tags gone wild!
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 21:14 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Plus, would both outcomes have been the same if their situations were reversed? My tendency is to say yes.
I think you're right there, Denise. And I take your point about Eowyn and Hethlin's repsective states of mind when they were each confronting the Witch King. I don't feel as strongly about Eown's bravery being greater than Hethlin's on the Pelennor as I do about whether or not Hethlin & Imrahil would be a good match. ;)
I do think that there is a difference between choosing to act and acting in a situation that you've been forced into, but when you factor in their mindsets it becomes more difficult to say that one act was greater than the other in terms of courage. I think Eowyn's mindset from Dunharrow through her healing in Minas Tirith is a hard nut to crack. Hethlin's is more clear to us, and definitely attests to her courage. So, let's say that so far they're different, but equal?
And this is not to say that I think that they will always be equals in courage. Living a traditional woman's role still has plenty of opportunities to show courage of different kinds, but I'd be willing to bet that, as they go through life, Hethlin's acts will outstrip Eowyn's on the bravery front.
Oh, Denise, good call on the italics. Weird when they go wonky!
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 22:23 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Rebecca: I don't feel as strongly about Eowyn's bravery being greater than Hethlin's on the Pelennor as I do about whether or not Hethlin & Imrahil would be a good match. ;)
*grins* Yes, I think we're just too dedicated to our differing viewpoints on that last one!
So, let's say that so far they're different, but equal? Done! :)
I'd be willing to bet that, as they go through life, Hethlin's acts will outstrip Eowyn's on the bravery front.
Well, especially if Isabeau keeps dropping those exasperating hints in her side-stories (like the epilogue of Lossarnach Yule)! But I definitely agree about bravery still being required of Eowyn in her more domestic role. Motherhood in particular is not for the faint-hearted...
Weird when they (HTML tags) go wonky!
Remember when it happened to the main journal page last week? When I questioned Mike about it he said that it occurs when someone forgets a closing tag or when one is typed incorrectly in a comment. I'm guessing that when you typed comment #31 that your final closing italics tag might have been mistyped. (Me, I'm always reversing the "i" and the slash.) The darn system doesn't give you an "error" sign or anything - it just strips out the mistyped tag and carries on blithely altering everything in sight that comes afterwards. Mike said that he was trying to find a permanent fix, but, ah, apparently he hasn't gotten one to work yet. I forgot to ask him how he fixed it, but putting the closing italics tag at the start of a following comment seemed logical. I'm just glad we have a method that works when it happens!
Posted:Mar 6, 2006 23:39 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Mea culpa! I could see as soon as I'd posted my qualifying comments about Hethlin & Eowyn that I'd messed up the italics. I didn't think that would spill into other posts though... sorry everyone!
I'll ask Mike if it's possible to let posters edit their posts after submission. If there's an edit window of only ten or fifteen minutes, people like me, who are often posting here while doing other things as well and notice mistakes only after posting, could correct ourselves as needed.
Posted:Mar 7, 2006 08:47 GMT Reply to this Comment
 I thought I had fixed the runaway, (ie no end tag), formatting. I'll have to test it some more.
PS: I am testing runaway italics,
Posted:Mar 7, 2006 09:56 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Further testing of runaway Italics
test, test, test
Posted:Mar 7, 2006 09:57 GMT Reply to this Comment
Ah yes, good point. On the other hand, we're such a small group and relatively contention-free (despite Denise and I going back and forth on Certain Matters!) that I'd guess the risk of someone editing another's post would be very slim indeed. And if the editing window was only open for ten minutes or so, the opportunity to mess with another's posts would be very short.
But it's only an idea... another idea would be for me to stop trying to multi-task and pay more attention to what I'm doing when I'm posting here. (grimace!)
Posted:Mar 7, 2006 10:01 GMT Reply to this Comment
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