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Princes of Dol Amroth
February, 25 2006
Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.
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 Nargil asked: Was the ficlet about C for B2mem part of Swan in Stone (loving the tittle)?
I think so. I may tweak it a bit if I ever do actually write all of that.
And what's happening to Brand, are you going with Una's view that Faramir was having a bad time of things right now? if so can he stay there?
I do indeed go with Una's view of things, and as you know, things are getting pretty iffy in A Game of Chess about now. Brand's radar as regards domestic strife is pretty acute, but were he to speak to Faramir on the matter, Faramir would donwplay it. He's too private a person. And if Brand asked Faramir to let him live there, Faramir would do it, no matter the situation with Eowyn.
Posted:May 10, 2007 20:20 GMT Reply to this Comment
 I, too have some questions regarding Passages. I have arranged them in order of chapters.
How old are the other children? I never could determine it.
And if they somehow managed to get it done, well, he was of the blood of Numenor, wasn’t he? Such men could take themselves out of life and he would do that, if he could discover the way of it. He would return to Gondor whole, or not at all.
 Imhiriel asked:
Is there some symbolical reason for chosing this particular fairy-tale for Brand to tell, especially considering the detail it takes up in the narrative? I roughly know the original story, although I think it's far better known in the US than here in Germany, but I can't see a connection between the adventure in the fairy-tale and the children's tribulations.
Part of it is because I came across a book of Jack-tales a while back at work, and read up just a little bit about him. But no, there isn't any particular symbolism as regards the story-other than that I figured that a tale about a resourceful folk-hero would go well, and be something that someone with Brand's commoner background would know. I'll admit the story was a big digression, but Brand wanted to tell it, so I let him. It did provide an opportunity to get to know the other children a bit better. His delivery was much more polished than I had expected-got a bit of Grandy in him, I do think!
How old are the other children? I never could determine it.
I actually did mention that Tullus was ten, but I didn't say anything specific about the others. I'll have to go back and do something about that. Celeg is seven and Eiliriel five.
I don't quite understand the point Brand makes here. If he is thinking about suicide, surely for this he doesn't have to be Númenórean? Or does he make a distinction (morally, ethically, perhaps?)?
He is thinking about the legend where those of Numenorean blood can voluntarily give up their lives-will themselves to die. Like Aragorn does eventually.
My suspicion about what Glorfindel might have said is along the lines of that all beliefs and cultures end up together in the end in the hand of the One. So that it doesn't matter that Boromir believes in the Valar and Andrahar does in the Sacred Fire and that the afterlife for each belief is thought to be separate. Am I close *g*?
Pretty much. Glorfy's got more first-hand experience with such things than most beings.
"Perhaps one day in the future the whole truth of the man may be known."
Any plans to expand on that? Not that you need any more nuzgûls as it is...
No, and NO! *g*
Loved the reminder of Imri's morning-grumpiness. And darn, try as I might, I can't read anything from Heth's and his behaviour towards each other. It's just as friendly as ever, no clue as to what might have happened - or not happened - in the intervening 2 (?) years since Silver Swan. Is it only the hiatus during her training?
She's pretty much finished her training at this point and is getting ready to test out-ergo Imrahil's comments. As to what is between them, he did come back to Dol Amroth sooner than he had expected and has travelled back and forth to Minas Tirith several times. Their relationship hasn't progressed much from what it was during the Lorien trip-he's been trying to keep his distance. Nonetheless, she has known him long enough now to be much more comfortable in his presence. Unless, of course, she's dealing with Almost Nekkid Imrahil.
Posted:May 15, 2007 00:02 GMT Reply to this Comment
 He is thinking about the legend where those of Numenorean blood can voluntarily give up their lives-will themselves to die. Like Aragorn does eventually.
That's the part I did understand. What I wondered about was: If he had not been Númenórean, would he not have contemplated "death before dishonour"? That is, does he make a moral distinction in this case between suicide and "laying down his life"? I don't know if this goes way beyond what you wanted to say in this scene, but that's what I was asking myself when I read it.
No, and NO! *g*
*an evil chuckle echoes over the pond from the direction of S-W-Germany*
She's pretty much finished her training at this point and is getting ready to test out-ergo Imrahil's comments.
And his not-so-subtle mention of the test also reminds her that she can no longer use her training as an excuse to come to a decision regarding her relationship to him. He has been remarkably patient thus far, but the "close season" is nearing its end.
Poor Hethlin - confronted with pirate-"Almost Nekkid"-Imrahil early in the morning...
Although, I wouldn't mind being in her place *eg*.
Posted:May 15, 2007 11:35 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Imhiriel said: Although, I wouldn't mind being in her place *eg*.
You and about a zillion other Imrahil fans... Can I be in line behind you? *g*
You know, I do agree with you that Imrahil has been patient, but I also feel very strongly that he owes Hethlin patience, well beyond the esquire testing if need be. I mean, she was never trying to gain his affections, she's still rather young to be married (for a northern Dunadan) and marriage would mean a very big sacrifice on Heth's part. After all the hard work of earning her white belt, marriage (IMvvHO) would quickly mean children, which would most likely mean no more battles for Heth for a long while - no matter that Imrahil swore he'd never ask her to give up her sword. Not that marriage to Imrahil wouldn't offer plenty of, ah... compensations, but it's a bigger decision than for most women of this time and place.
Not that I don't feel for Imrahil, of course - you know how high a place he holds in my estimation...
Posted:May 16, 2007 00:46 GMT Reply to this Comment
 You know, I do agree with you that Imrahil has been patient, but I also feel very strongly that he owes Hethlin patience, well beyond the esquire testing if need be. I mean, she was never trying to gain his affections, she's still rather young to be married (for a northern Dunadan) and marriage would mean a very big sacrifice on Heth's part. After all the hard work of earning her white belt, marriage (IMvvHO) would quickly mean children, which would most likely mean no more battles for Heth for a long while
Just popping my nose in while taking a much-needed break from grading exams (yuck) to say that this is why I'm not a fan of the Hethlin/Imrahil pairing -- I hate to see poor Imrahil suffering and waiting, when he's been alone for so long and hasn't got *that* many vigorous years left to him.
Not that I'm trying to re-start this debate ... hee hee... ;)
Posted:May 16, 2007 22:10 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Not that I'm trying to re-start this debate ... hee hee... ;)
*snicker* I know, I was wondering how much of my comment was repetitive from earlier discussions...
I still personally think those considerations on Heth's part can be overcome, especially since as last of her line she has dynastic "obligations" (and Isabeau's "Fourth Age") that says she must eventually wed - but we've already covered the timing-of-children pros and cons. :D
Just think how lovely it will all be for Imrahil if Heth finally agreed. Surely even a short time of true bliss would be worth a few years longing!
I'm not sure what I wish for Elrohir, on the other hand. Great things, certainly, as I really like his character; but his future feels murky either with Heth or without.
I hope your exam grading is finished soon, Rebecca!
Posted:May 16, 2007 22:30 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Just think how lovely it will all be for Imrahil if Heth finally agreed. Surely even a short time of true bliss would be worth a few years longing!
Ah, but you see, that's just it -- I'd rather that Imrahil not have to wait to find happiness! I'd rather that he not have to suffer an unrequited crush and put on weight and hit the bottle as he apparently has been doing for the last two years. I'd rather see him happily in love with someone who doesn't present a host of obstacles to overcome ... and it's not like Hethlin's personality and Imrahil's are so perfectly matched that it's inevitable that they'll end up together. It's not unlikely that they'll end up together, but it just doesn't seem inevitable, to me. He's lusting after her, but they don't have sparks of intrigue, annoyance, competitiveness, or self-discovery between them (unlike Hethlin and Elrohir -- not saying it has to be Elrohir but just comparing the two combinations). If Imrahil & Hethlin end up together, they'd have a nice relationship, I'm sure, and Imrahil will be psyched to finally get to sate his carnal needs with Hethlin, and she'll enjoy it for sure, but that's about it, as far as I can see. It would be a nice partnership, they'd be good to each other ... but well, I've said this all before. I just don't see this as a great love-match. So seeing Imrahil having to wait & suffer for years for a merely pleasant relationship -- with good sex, yes, but lots of compromises and worries about how choices affect one's partner -- doesn't sit well with me.
I'm actually rather disappointed in Imrahil. Hethlin's great, sure, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of other really attractive, intelligent, worthy women in Dol Amroth, Gondor, or further afield who would be available *now*! He's savvy enough to recognize that Hethlin is not strongly drawn to him -- she likes him, she finds him attractive, she's certainly not indifferent to him, but it's obvious that he doesn't consume her thoughts. So I'm disappointed that he has chosen to ... mope isn't quite the right word, but chronic heavy drinking is not a great way to handle disappointment or frustration. Sure, I could see him hoping that as she matures Hethlin would become more strongly drawn to him -- and nothing wrong with hoping! But to cling so stubbornly to that, and in the meantime punish himself, seems very adolescent to me. And a little surprising, given the way he was in his youth! I like Imrahil a lot, and I'd rather see him happy sooner than later!
OK, back to exams. Soon they'll be finished!
Posted:May 17, 2007 13:43 GMT Reply to this Comment
Hethlin's great, sure, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of other really attractive, intelligent, worthy women in Dol Amroth, Gondor, or further afield who would be available *now*!
But isn't that the crux of the problem? Imrahil has been searching for a long time for a partner, and didn't find one (granted, that was more for the sake of his growing children than his own). So he stopped looking until he was hit over the head with Hethlin. There was no other for him that he felt himself attracted to. And if Hethlin chose to deny him now, I rather doubt he would look elsewhere.
I also don't get the feeling from the glimpses we get that play after the current chapters of Silver Swan until ca. 3 years after, that Imrahil has felt a great need to look elsewhere, or that his drinking has become such a big problem. Certainly, Brand noticed, but I doubt it has affected him much. He has a hard head, and the drinking seems to me rather to be a sign of his "moping" *g* as a search for oblivion.
Although I agree with you that I'd like to see Imrahil happy *now*, I just don't see how it could be done logically from where we stand in Silver Swan and how Isabeau has shown things in other stories that are set later. And I certainly don't want him to have a brief affair during his wait for Hethlin's decision just for the sake of letting of some steam (not that this is what you said, but I don't see many other possibilities within the frame of "Unabeau-canon"). As we see, three years from Silver Swan, there is still only Hethlin on his mind.
Posted:May 17, 2007 14:27 GMT Reply to this Comment
 Oh you guys it's great to be butting heads with you again, although I really should be focused on grading... heh heh...
Imhiriel wrote: drinking seems to me rather to be a sign of his "moping" *g* as a search for oblivion.
Yes, that's just it -- I see it as him trying to drown his sorrows too, and that's why I'm disappointed in him. I understand why Imrahil fell for Hethlin -- he'd been keeping his needs on a leash in that regard for a long time until he met her, in part because of his family obligations, and then probably out of habit. Plus many of the eligible women he'd have been exposed to over the years were probably blatant in their wish to be the new Princess of Dol Amroth. Who can blame him?
So while I totally see why he "woke up" when he met Hethlin, I'm disappointed that he hasn't had the self-awareness to recognize that part of the reason he feels so strongly about her might be because she was the first time he'd let his guard down on that front. I've also said this before: they really haven't had much one-on-one interaction, so I don't see how he could believe himself to be in love with her rather than merely infatuated. Infatuations can hit hard, I know! I still find myself falling prey to them now and then ... but as I get older I realize more that they're not necessarily a sign that something is "meant to be." Imrahil is no callow youth, convinced that because he's in love it must work out.
I'm disappointed that he's allowing himself to wallow in some degree of misery, to the point where he seeks oblivion in a bottle, rather than picking himself up, brushing himself off, and saying, "Right. OK, that's not going to be an option for me, let's move on." He's usually very pragmatic, a shrewd assessor of which way the wind is blowing, and quite good at engaging in merciless self-reflection, acknowledging mistakes, etc. Since Hethlin hasn't given any indication that she returns his feelings at all -- let alone with the intensity that he feels -- I'm just surprised and disappointed that he hasn't taken that in stride and moved on.
Because as it is, he is pressuring her. If Brand is sharp enough to pick up on Imrahil's feelings for Hethlin, you know that she is uncomfortably aware of them! I found myself relating to Hethlin during the kitchen encounter, remembering times that I've encountered men socially who had previously indicated a romantic interest in me that I didn't return. It's awkward, if you're someone who tries to be careful about others' feelings. You don't want to create even the slightest impression that you are encouraging their feelings but you don't want to be rude, either.
Sigh. Just sorry to see that it's come to this for Imrahil. I don't see what would have been wrong with a lusty dalliance with another woman (so long as no one got hurt -- a tall order, I know!). And come on, who wouldn't want to read some Imrahil smut! ;-)
Posted:May 17, 2007 15:12 GMT Reply to this Comment
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