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Princes of Dol Amroth

By:Isabeau
 February, 25 2006

Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.


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292 replies


 [111] I didn't find The Exercise of Vital Powers to be convincing, in terms of Tolkien canon and my own understanding of Aragorn's character. It's a fine story, but I can only accept it as part of a parallel universe, as I accept the movies. (nothing against Soledad; who is a gifted writer; I absolutely love her story Face of the Enemy). I think if there were such instability brewing within Gondor, (i.e. Dol Amroth backing Denethor and the Steward backing Thorongil) due to Thorongil's presence, he would have planned to leave himself (after the destruction of the Corsair fleet, which he would have rightly guessed was more important than anyone's hurt feelings) with no urging needed from Finduilas or anyone.



7538
Posted:May 4, 2006 03:20 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [112] In defense of Aragorn's "failure" of Boromir; and the belief that Aragorn failed as a commander...When the Fellowship set out, it was made clear that this was not a military unit, nor was there any fealty nor obligation on anyone other than Frodo, whose job it was to destroy the Ring. So this was not a military squadron with Aragorn replacing Gandalf as Captain.

That being said, I think Aragorn dropped the ball; not perhaps so much in handling Boromir's Ring-temptation - I blame Galadriel for not mentioning, when she clearly seemed to know of it, Boromir's vulnerability, to Aragorn or even Boromir himself - but in the final sequence that resulted in Frodo and Sam vanished, two other hobbits made captive, and Boromir dead. Aragorn was the de facto leader of the Fellowship; and he dropped the ball, or perhaps didn't watch the multiple balls closely enough. But I applaud Tolkien's writing FOTR that way; it shows that Aragorn isn't always perfect, he's capable of making mistakes. (and letting Frodo go wandering off to think by himself in the dangerous wilderness was definitely not one of Aragorn's better decisions!!! Heck, he could have snuck up and observed him from behind a rock with Rangerly stealth and Frodo wouldn't have known he was even there...)

I'm not sure that Aragorn is liable for not being aware of Boromir's Ring-problems; Aragorn could have been of a mind that he and Boromir and Gandalf and everyone but the hobbits were responsible for their own souls. But he should have deployed his forces better at Parth Galen, beginning with a closer eye on Frodo...

Raksha The Demon
Posted:May 4, 2006 03:41 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [113] Is this the right spot for questions about The Recall? I can repost elsewhere if you would prefer.

What are Variags? (discussion about the Battle on the Pelennor)

Under what capacity is Brand attending the meeting? (Was so cool to see him again, and obviously a man of importance. And the story of what he did after Andrahar died - chills down the spine!)

Is the Maharian scimitar the same one that Andra received from Adrahil (Nightshade)? I'm pretty sure it's "yes" but the smith's name is spelled a little differently in Kin-Strife - or I'm just off-base on what the possessive of "Mahiran" would look like (highly likely). Will Brand make it his primary blade now?

When Imrahil mentions the "old blood" around Belfalas is speaking of the men that were there before the Numenoreans? He singles out his mother as having some, so I wondered if you were partly adopting Soledad's theory of her ancestry.

Thanks again for this story, Isabeau - although I loved "Red River" I'm SO glad someone rescued poor Raksandhar! And thus particularly loved the ending. I think meeting the young Haradrim would have been very comforting to Imrahil.

Denise
Posted:May 29, 2006 03:36 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [114] Denise wrote: Is this the right spot for questions about The Recall? I can repost elsewhere if you would prefer.

No, this is the right place.

What are Variags? (discussion about the Battle on the Pelennor)

They're Men. From Khand if I recollect correctly. Part of that mish-mash of folk from the south that Sauron sent up to Minas Tirith.

Under what capacity is Brand attending the meeting? (Was so cool to see him again, and obviously a man of importance. And the story of what he did after Andrahar died - chills down the spine!)

He's on the Council. Una decided that Faramir gifted him with some of Finduilas' dower lands, and Andra finally did what he wouldn't do for his own sake and swore fealty to Aragorn so that he could get land for Brand as well. Between the two of them, Brand has got enough property that he warrants a place of the Council, which Aragorn would probably have given him anyway.

Is the Maharian scimitar the same one that Andra received from Adrahil (Nightshade)? I'm pretty sure it's "yes" but the smith's name is spelled a little differently in Kin-Strife - or I'm just off-base on what the possessive of "Mahiran" would look like (highly likely). Will Brand make it his primary blade now?

Yes it is. I mispelled it, thinking I remembered the right spelling and not bothering to look it up. (Blush.) It's fixed now.

I'm thinking that it will probably become Brand's primary blade, but I'm not absolutely decided. Originally, before Brand came along, Andrahar would have left it to Liahan. And there is the argument for it put into his tomb with him. Anybody got any strong feelings about it?


When Imrahil mentions the "old blood" around Belfalas is speaking of the men that were there before the Numenoreans? He singles out his mother as having some, so I wondered if you were partly adopting Soledad's theory of her ancestry.

Yes, I'm thinking that way.

Thanks again for this story, Isabeau - although I loved "Red River" I'm SO glad someone rescued poor Raksandhar! And thus particularly loved the ending. I think meeting the young Haradrim would have been very comforting to Imrahil.

I'm very glad you liked it, Denise. It was certainly comforting to me!


Posted:May 29, 2006 08:46 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [115] Isabeau: ...Andra finally did what he wouldn't do for his own sake and swore fealty to Aragorn...

Gasp! I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that. Speaks to Andra's love of Brand more than almost anything else could, I think...

On Nightshade, I can see the point about burying Andrahar's blade with him. Although there's some precedent to keeping it out, too. (I'm thinking of the other swords that Princes carried, and which Andra could have chosen, in KS.) It seems such a famous blade to be removed from use, and Andra has a few others to choose from that could have gone in the tomb. Then again, you could probably convince me of anything...

Denise
Posted:May 29, 2006 12:56 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [116] He's on the Council. Una decided that Faramir gifted him with some of Finduilas' dower lands, and Andra finally did what he wouldn't do for his own sake and swore fealty to Aragorn so that he could get land for Brand as well. Between the two of them, Brand has got enough property that he warrants a place of the Council, which Aragorn would probably have given him anyway.

To let drop such a bomb on the unsuspecting! I think I'll borrow Denise's words to express my reaction:

Gasp! I'm glad I was sitting down when I read that. Speaks to Andra's love of Brand more than almost anything else could, I think...

Now I'm really, really eager to see more of the grown-up Brand than you have given us in this nice (but too brief;)) glimps in Recall.

Judging from the guild member, it is not really necessary to have enough land to get a seat on the council, it could also happen because of special knowledge or because of merit. Do yo have any preference to Brand's seat being because of land rather than merit alone? Or is it both?

What I forgot to say in my review is that I very much like the fact that Imrahil didn't know Raksandhar before making his move, that is was because of his general sense of justice rather than personal acquaintance.

re: the sword

I like the notion that Andra leaves Nightshade to Brand. But he should be buried with a sword, it seems fitting. Maybe one he used before Nightshade? Or one Glorfindel gifted to him?

Imhiriel
Posted:May 29, 2006 17:39 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [117] Isabeau: Andra finally did what he wouldn't do for his own sake and swore fealty to Aragorn so that he could get land for Brand as well.

Another thought on this: Not that you need more stuff to write about, but that's definitely one scenario I would love to see - how Andra decides on this and how he actually goes forward with it after that forceful refusal mentioned in Silver Swan. He has so much honor and self-sacrifice in him that it just hurts to see it sometimes.

While reading the council scene, I kept thinking of your characterization of Duinhir in CMC, and decided that Daerlath must take after his mother's side of the family... Made me wish his father was still around to whack him with a cane or something.

Denise
Posted:May 29, 2006 19:39 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [118] Imhiriel wrote: Judging from the guild member, it is not really necessary to have enough land to get a seat on the council, it could also happen because of special knowledge or because of merit. Do yo have any preference to Brand's seat being because of land rather than merit alone? Or is it both?

Both, I think. I suspect the Council has a few seats that are always filled by specific people-the lords of the major regions of Gondor, and possibly the Captain-General of the army when he's in town, and some that the king fills at his own discretion. Since Brand is not a lord of a major region, he's probably one of a bunch that Aragorn could have chosen from. It's actually probably merit/birth in his case rather than merit/land. Sometimes I think these things through after the fact, when someone asks about them. They lurk in my subconscious but I don't really sort them out until I get an inquiry.

What I forgot to say in my review is that I very much like the fact that Imrahil didn't know Raksandhar before making his move, that is was because of his general sense of justice rather than personal acquaintance.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked that-I felt pretty strongly that it should be the case. Like you, I wanted Imrahil to be acting upon behalf of all of Harad rather than just because he liked one nice young lord.

I like the notion that Andra leaves Nightshade to Brand. But he should be buried with a sword, it seems fitting. Maybe one he used before Nightshade? Or one Glorfindel gifted to him?

I think Andra would want a blade as special as Nightshade to be used. It sat in an armory for so long as it was. I don't think Glorfindel gifted him with a sword-it was too short an acquaintance and too personal a gift, almost insulting if you think about it, for Andra's blade is clearly something quite special. But he certainly could have been laid to rest with his original issue Swan Knight blade, or as is more likely, one of the nicer ones they issue officers. I think that is what he probably would have preferred, the more I think about it. I contemplated at one point having Brand end up with Starfall, the Numenorean blade, but I'm thinking that Andrahar might petition Imri to give that to Liahan, whose family is well-pedigreed but not well-moneyed. He's a swordsman worthy of a blade like that. And strangely enough, the mysterious Elven blade ends up with Erchirion. And saves his bacon on a voyage that I might end up writing closer to Halloween.


Posted:May 29, 2006 19:48 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [119] Denise wrote: Another thought on this: Not that you need more stuff to write about, but that's definitely one scenario I would love to see - how Andra decides on this and how he actually goes forward with it after that forceful refusal mentioned in Silver Swan. He has so much honor and self-sacrifice in him that it just hurts to see it sometimes.

That is a story I will probably write at some point, though what exactly will precipitate his decision is unclear to me at the moment.

While reading the council scene, I kept thinking of your characterization of Duinhir in CMC, and decided that Daerlath must take after his mother's side of the family... Made me wish his father was still around to whack him with a cane or something.

That was the desired reaction. Great men don't always have great sons. And Daerlath may have a chip on his shoulder thanks to dear old dad. He may have been living with Daddy's disappointment that he wasn't his brothers for most of his adolescence and early adulthood.

Elphir will in the long run, suffer a bit from being a pale imitation of a very extraordinary man. Though he's never a whiny jerk like Daerlath, even on his worse day.



Posted:May 29, 2006 19:56 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [120] Isabeau: Elphir will in the long run, suffer a bit from being a pale imitation of a very extraordinary man.

That's very thought-provoking. It would be hard to top your Imrahil, certainly. (And I imagine Eldarion might also have some of that in store for him?) I didn't really think about it before, but Elphir is ~67 by the time Imrahil dies. That's a long time to be second in charge - whether he's impatient to implement some of his own ideas or ends up becoming too dependent on Dad.

Thinking of Imrahil's mother, I wonder if his grandmother had even more of the "old blood" in her - it's always seemed a rather drastic drop in lifespan from Angelimir to Adrahil in HoME.

Denise
Posted:May 29, 2006 20:33 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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