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Princes of Dol Amroth

By:Isabeau
 February, 25 2006

Questions about the life and times of Imrahil and his family can be asked here, including questions about Ultimatums, Kin-Strife and the shorter stories. Discussions about Brand can go either here or in the Best-Loved Son thread, since his stories sort of overlap both cycles.


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292 replies


 [101] Frankly, I think this is just another example of Tolkien's bad plotting. LotR is a heroic romance, not a realistic adventure story, and full of inconsistencies; if you think about them too much, you can't make sense of them on Tolkien's terms--which is one of the reasons why the idea of "canon" is so absurd. How about this question: Galadriel, from her own admission to Gandalf, figured out all about Boromir before the Fellowship left Lorien. So why does she keep it to herself? Well, the answer can only be that if she told, the plot won't proceed the way Tolkien wanted it to. I sure can't come up with any other reason.

Likewise, I don't think that Tolkien had any intention whatsoever of showing Aragorn as an incompetent commander at that point in his life. Nothing he ever wrote about Aragorn would lead you to that conclusion.

The upshot is that we fanfic writers can reinterpret these scenes as we are inclined. I can certainly see how criticism of Aragorn would emerge from the story as told (especially the part about letting Frodo wander alone). But that's not my take on it.

Questions like these come out all through LotR. Why is Gandalf so stupid as to leave that letter for Frodo with Barliman Butterbur? Why is it that Legolas doesn't know there are still Elves in Lorien? Why on earth would Gimli think those Dwarves could still be alive in Moria? How come Saruman doesn't know about the Heir of Isildur? Why didn't Sauron see, in the palantir, the Fellowship coming down the river in their boats? Why does Arwen leave the Elfstone in Lorien for Aragorn? Why doesn't Glorfindel set out a lot sooner to find Frodo et al in the Wild pursued by all the Nine at once? You can make a pretty good argument that almost everyone in book is just unbelievably dim!

Great matter for comedy, IMO.

Amy
Posted:Apr 26, 2006 14:37 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [102] I think you ask some very interesting questions, Amy. I don't know that there are satisfactory answers for any of them, although some things I've found easier to accept than others.

Regarding Galadriel, don't the Elves in general, and perhaps Galadriel in particular, have an established reputation for keeping their own counsel unless asked? What if Galadriel had warned the others about Boromir, or what if she'd even gone so far as to have him detained when the others departed? It seems to me that she would have prevented Boromir from choosing his own path, and thus she would have taken responsibility for what happened in his absence. Maybe I've misunderstood what happened on Amon Hen, but if Frodo hadn't run away from Boromir, and opted to set out alone, wouldn't he have been around when the Uruk-hai arrived? Is it possible that Galadriel not only saw what was in Boromir's heart, but also had an inkling of what fate lay in store for him if he continued on his own path? In one way of looking at it, Boromir is sacrificed for the ultimate good of the cause. (Of course this idea might be influenced by the fact that I've been listening to Rufus Wainwright's "Agnus Dei" over and over this week).

Perhaps that's just post-facto rationalization...

Rebecca
Posted:Apr 27, 2006 11:38 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [103] I appreciate your dilemma. The basic problem comes from the fact that LotR is not a character-driven story. No one picks up Tolkien hoping for psychological insight into the choices people make--or if they do, they are misinformed.

The events do not flow from the choices the characters make. Rather, the characters are "iconic," in the manner of a heroic romance, and the events often illustrate rather the action of "fate" despite the characters' intent. Aragorn seems to be choosing to turn away from going to Minas Tirith to claim the kingship, but in reality he sets off on exactly the road that will get him there.

So, yes, I think the ultimate reason for the entire plotline between Lorien and Amon Hen is that Frodo must flee to Mordor alone, not just to prevent his capture by the Uruk-hai--but to set up the whole Sam-Frodo-Gollum story. If Aragorn had gone with them--why, the whole story would have dramatically changed on both sides of the river.

I read Tolkien for the story. I write fanfic for the characters. Ultimately, any of us who write in that way end up contradicting the good professor! Makes it a lot more fun, if you ask me.

Amy

Amy
Posted:Apr 29, 2006 11:48 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [104] Couple of Questions from ultimatums:

Imri, Callia and a horse! do we here more on this?

Also why did Andra read a book of love poetry?

Rochnariel
Posted:Apr 30, 2006 15:18 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [105] Do we ever meet Imrahil's Grandfather prince Angelimir he was alive untill Imri was 22 acording to my copy of the history of middle earth, also Imrahil's other sister Princess Ivriniel.

Angelimir gives a rather interesting ruote on Boromir and Faramir as well, even if the pronunciation is a little unfortunate.

Nargil
Posted:Apr 30, 2006 17:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [106] Rochnariel asked-Imri, Callia and a horse! do we here more on this?

Not unless my ability to write deviant smut gets much, much better than it is now....

Also why did Andra read a book of love poetry?

Initially, when I started Ultimatums, I said something to the effect that Andrahar didn't like books. And I don't think he is much of a scholarly bent. But over time, I decided that he did like poetry. That's why he has the discussion with Adrahil in Kin-Strife about Kedara and Asinyal. And liking poetry, he probably would have tried all the Haradric books of poetry in Dol Amroth's library at one time or another, ergo his familiarity with the volume Imrahil was looking at.


Posted:Apr 30, 2006 23:10 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [107] Nargil asked: Do we ever meet Imrahil's Grandfather prince Angelimir he was alive untill Imri was 22 acording to my copy of the history of middle earth, also Imrahil's other sister Princess Ivriniel.

Been a while since I looked at that particular volume of HoME. I'd forgotten about Angelimir-I'll have to think about that one. But if I recollect correctly, Ivriniel died young. I think what made me think that she died young was that Finduilas and Imrahil had both birth and death dates in that family tree, while Ivriniel had only a birth date. Which led me to believe she died soon after birth, or within a year at the very latest. Not unlikely at all, really. Even in noble houses, there would be infant mortality. So I don't think you'll be seeing her any time soon...

Angelimir gives a rather interesting ruote on Boromir and Faramir as well, even if the pronunciation is a little unfortunate.

Yes, he does, doesn't he. Perhaps it was Finduilas who named both her boys. Maybe she really, really loved her grandfather.


Posted:Apr 30, 2006 23:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [108] Regarding the Dol Amroth family tree's lack of death date for Ivriniel as being proof of her early demise - the said can be said for Erchirion and Amrothos, who also have birthdates but no death dates. But you, and others, have used Erchirion and Amrothos in fanfic stories; so it's obviously a matter of one's own interpretation. I don't think that Ivriniel necessarily died young...

RAKSHA THE DEMON
Posted:May 1, 2006 02:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [109] Angelimir could have abducated though, for Adrahil to be prince when Andra is there, perhaps Ivriniel married away, to one of the Lords, she could be Peloren's mother or somthing?

Maybe not, that would make him Imri's nephew

Nargil
Posted:May 1, 2006 11:02 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [110] Nargil: Angelimir could have abducated though...

Hmmm... He could be chronically ill, or suffering from a bad accident, or some other generally incapacitating problem... Adrahil could be acting as ruling prince in all but name.

Denise
Posted:May 1, 2006 23:52 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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