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The Best-Loved Son cycle

By:Isabeau
 February, 23 2006

Anything dealing with this cycle of stories can be discussed here: Andra and Boromir as a couple, the Denethor/Imrahil/Andrahar rivalry, the politics of Gondor in the last days of the Third Age.


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53 replies


 [31] Something occurred to me out of the blue last night:
Will Aragorn abolish the laws regarding homosexuality? And if so, how would Andra react to such a step? And would there be an acknowledgement of sorts ex post facto of Boromir's relationship with Andra?

Imhiriel


Posted:Oct 29, 2006 10:29 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [32] Imhiriel wrote: Something occurred to me out of the blue last night:
Will Aragorn abolish the laws regarding homosexuality? And if so, how would Andra react to such a step? And would there be an acknowledgement of sorts ex post facto of Boromir's relationship with Andra?

Yes, in fact, one of the first things Aragorn does is overhaul Gondor's laws and that is one of the ones that he abolishes.

As to how Andrahar thinks about it, he thinks it's definitely a good idea, though I don't think the abolition is enough in and of itself to win him over to Aragorn's camp...;-)

Una and I touch on this a little in that piece we've been working on for some time. If we ever get over this difficult spot in the middle, you may eventually see it.


Isabeau
Posted:Oct 29, 2006 19:37 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [33] Yes, in fact, one of the first things Aragorn does is overhaul Gondor's laws and that is one of the ones that he abolishes.

I wonder how the Gondorians will react to that. And I also wonder how he will do it. Either as just one law among many, more-or-less unobtrusively, or if he will draw particular attention to it. He can also point to the Elves (who are now again so much nearer to Men) as an example of a society where homosexuality is accepted.

As to how Andrahar thinks about it, he thinks it's definitely a good idea, though I don't think the abolition is enough in and of itself to win him over to Aragorn's camp...;-)

I hope he doesn't think Aragorn did it to get back into his good graces *g*. I'm looking forward to seeing it. I would send you my muses to help you with the difficult spot, but I'm afraid I need them myself just yet *g*.

Imhiriel


Posted:Oct 29, 2006 22:47 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [34] Did Tolkien mention that homosexuality is accepted in Elven society? If not, well, it can be surmised, or not surmised, as the storyteller wishes.

I think that Aragorn would overhaul some of Gondor's laws, not all, and with the cooperation/input of Faramir and to some extent Imrahil.

I could see Aragorn removing the penalties for sodomy between adults on the grounds of fairness and decency rather than a necessarily Elven influence.

I would think that the first legal issue Aragorn should tackle, more imnportant than the homosexuality laws, would be the laws of Kingly Succession. If Aragorn were to take a tumble from Roheryn and not awaken, or get in the way of an arrow before Arwen delivers a son, Kin-strife can rear its ugly head, especially if Arwen has a daughter. In Aragorn's place, I'd do some investigating and changing of the succession laws, Gondor needs it more. Also, many sons of land-holders and lords have perished; does land without a male heir revert to the returned king, or should Gondorian laws of succession expand to include descendants from female lines? (there's a precedent in the Steward's line, of a Steward who died without sons and his heir being his sister's son - another reason why Faramir's decision to accept Aragorn's claim was wise)

RAKSHA, being contrary

Raksha06
Posted:Oct 31, 2006 22:32 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [35] I will review when the story is finished (so as not to detract you from your writing *g*), but here just two quick comments:
- You misspelled Altariel in the prologue.
- What I wondered about was Brand's lack of emotional response to Imrahil's news of Elboron. He merely answered "politely". Isn't he excited, glad for Faramir & Éowyn, curious about the baby etc.?

Imhiriel
...very much loving the story so far - mean cliff-hanger included...


Posted:Nov 14, 2006 17:33 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [36] I'm going to return to the question about Boromir's area of authority. This has been bothering me for a while. How much land is under direct control of the steward? I would assume that Cair Andros and Osgilliath garrisons, besides the city guard, are the majority of the "Gondorian Army", with the rangers being a seperate group under the general umbrella. In theory, since I know the defenses have been scaled back, would these forces also patrol Lamedon, Lossarnach, etc? I think I remember something about Imrahil extending his patrols into southern Gondor outside of his own lands. Since these lands have their own lords, Denethor couldn't have been to happy about what would have looked like Imrahil trying to take over his job and his vassals.

Does anyone know the way this works in the canon/unabeauverse? This is the way I thought of it, and I could be wrong.

In Gondor, the sub-areas are, as mentioned in "Minas Tirith":
Lossarnach
Ringló Vale
Morthond
Anfalas
Pinnath Gelen
Dol Amroth/Belfalas/Dor-en-Ernil
+Lamedon without a lord

Anorien
Ithilien
Minas Tirith

The fuedal relationship seems to be working backwards. The southern lands are sending troops, and I assume paying taxes, without getting the protection from Minas Tirith in return. The people of Anorien were angry, and they were only paying allegiance in words, since they seemed to have no real contact with the government. You would think that the loyalty of everyone else would be wavering. The pulling back of central authority, and the near-desertion of Anorien, Ithilien and Osgilliath, which must have been important parts of the kingdom, shows the waning of Gondor, but it must have accelerated under Denethor, which fits in with the pattern of him as isolationist. Aragorn would have had his work cut out for him, knitting it back into a Kingdom - not to mention adding Arnor, which hadn't been governed for centuries!

I tried to compare the list above to my map, making me add a few more questions onto this already long musing: Is Pelargir part of Imrahil's domain or an independent city-state? What about Lebennin, which gets plenty of mention, but doesn't seem to be sending troops?

Sorry about the long list! Its one of those things that has been lurking in the back of my mind, bothering me

Inwai
Posted:Jan 20, 2007 22:18 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [37] I'm going to return to the question about Boromir's area of authority. This has been bothering me for a while. How much land is under direct control of the steward? I would assume that Cair Andros and Osgilliath garrisons, besides the city guard, are the majority of the "Gondorian Army", with the rangers being a seperate group under the general umbrella. In theory, since I know the defenses have been scaled back, would these forces also patrol Lamedon, Lossarnach, etc? I think I remember something about Imrahil extending his patrols into southern Gondor outside of his own lands. Since these lands have their own lords, Denethor couldn't have been to happy about what would have looked like Imrahil trying to take over his job and his vassals.

Does anyone know the way this works in the canon/unabeauverse? This is the way I thought of it, and I could be wrong.

In Gondor, the sub-areas are, as mentioned in "Minas Tirith":
Lossarnach
Ringló Vale
Morthond
Anfalas
Pinnath Gelen
Dol Amroth/Belfalas/Dor-en-Ernil
+Lamedon without a lord

Anorien
Ithilien
Minas Tirith

The fuedal relationship seems to be working backwards. The southern lands are sending troops, and I assume paying taxes, without getting the protection from Minas Tirith in return. The people of Anorien were angry, and they were only paying allegiance in words, since they seemed to have no real contact with the government. You would think that the loyalty of everyone else would be wavering. The pulling back of central authority, and the near-desertion of Anorien, Ithilien and Osgilliath, which must have been important parts of the kingdom, shows the waning of Gondor, but it must have accelerated under Denethor, which fits in with the pattern of him as isolationist. Aragorn would have had his work cut out for him, knitting it back into a Kingdom - not to mention adding Arnor, which hadn't been governed for centuries!

I tried to compare the list above to my map, making me add a few more questions onto this already long musing: Is Pelargir part of Imrahil's domain or an independent city-state? What about Lebennin, which gets plenty of mention, but doesn't seem to be sending troops?

Sorry about the long list! Its one of those things that has been lurking in the back of my mind, bothering me.

Inwai

Inwai
Posted:Jan 20, 2007 22:18 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [38] I don't think it nescesarily works backwards, just differently when there's a war on, look at London in WW2 the civilians all evacuated the cities and soldiers from all over the country joined up and went to the front, It just happens that in this case the front is in the city.

As for Boromir's authority, I think he was mainly in charge of dealing with the Frontire around Mordor and so for that he mostly commanded the Osgiliath garrison and I think he also delt with the training of the out companies to some extent, in one of the Drabbles he rides out with Andra and the Swan knights under the pretence of seeing how the trainiing is going so this is obviously not uncommon.

Looking at the numbers Tolkien mentions in the ROTK I don't think that the Soldiers in the City and osgiliath where anywhere near most of the army Imrahil brought 500 knights and 700 foot soldiers to Minas Tirith and the total of the rest of the outland forces is about 1300, although Tolkien mentions Forlong only brought 200 and they expected 10 times that many, so I think the solidiers of Minas Tirith and Osgiliath (including the rangers)are ony about 1/3rd of Gondors totall numbers of soldiers, however they don't all come, we only know the numbers that did so it could be as low as a quater.

I think Pelargir is seperate or allied to Minas Tirith if Anywhere, maybe it's a city without a Lord. Aragorn mentions fieths in Lebennin so maybe they don't have a grand overlord Like other places, don't they come with him or shortly after?

I dunno, that's my 2 cents

Nargil
Posted:Jan 22, 2007 16:20 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [39] Inwai wrote: I'm going to return to the question about Boromir's area of authority. This has been bothering me for a while. How much land is under direct control of the steward? I would assume that Cair Andros and Osgilliath garrisons, besides the city guard, are the majority of the "Gondorian Army", with the rangers being a seperate group under the general umbrella. In theory, since I know the defenses have been scaled back, would these forces also patrol Lamedon, Lossarnach, etc?

I apologize for taking so long to answer this Inwai. The Ithilien Rangers are a part of the Gondorian Army, just like the city guard, and in Unabeauverse they do answer to Boromir. I think you are right in assuming that Cair Andros and Osgilliath garrisons are the biggest part of the Gondorian Army. After the war, in my take on things, there is also a garrison down by Poros. I think that while the army doesn't necessarily patrol Lamedon or Lossarnach, Forlong and the people of Lamedon could ask for help and they would give it.

The fuedal relationship seems to be working backwards. The southern lands are sending troops, and I assume paying taxes, without getting the protection from Minas Tirith in return.

The impression I get from ROTK is that the troops who arrive at Minas Tirith are being sent there specifically for the defense of the city, by pre-arrangement with the Steward and the rest of the time they are defending their home territories. There also seems to have been some latitude on the part of their lords as to how many to send, since they don't send anywhere near enough to reassure the inhabitants of the city and that is because of the threat of the Corsairs.

The people of Anorien were angry, and they were only paying allegiance in words, since they seemed to have no real contact with the government. You would think that the loyalty of everyone else would be wavering. The pulling back of central authority, and the near-desertion of Anorien, Ithilien and Osgilliath, which must have been important parts of the kingdom, shows the waning of Gondor, but it must have accelerated under Denethor, which fits in with the pattern of him as isolationist.

The situation in Anorien was of course of my own invention in the Unabeauverse, and I don't think it's strictly canonical. I had this vision that territory was only very sparsely inhabited, then later on I read a passage somewhere that seemed to contradict that. But I did indeed hit upon it as a way at least of further exhibiting that Gondor was waning-here you had this rich land within the very kingdom itself going unclaimed.

Aragorn would have had his work cut out for him, knitting it back into a Kingdom - not to mention adding Arnor, which hadn't been governed for centuries!

And the poor dear has another war to fight right off, thanks to Una.

Is Pelargir part of Imrahil's domain or an independent city-state?

Independent city state, to my way of thinking. And they have a good-sized Gondorian army garrison there, in Unabeauverse. The Corsairs didn't just sail into the city unopposed. At some point I'm going to have to decide exactly what happened down in the Bay of Belfalas-Dol Amroth's navy would have opposed the Corsairs, and Gondor's too.

What about Lebennin, which gets plenty of mention, but doesn't seem to be sending troops?

Your guess is as good as mine, as to why they would be exempt from a military levy, given that it seems to be a prosperous place. I'll have to mull that one over.

As to how far Boromir's writ runs, in Unabeauverse it's over all of Gondor save for Imrahil's territory, which covers Belfalas, Dor-en-Ernil and Dol Amroth itself. Imrahil's position is rather unique. He is the only royalty in Gondor, until Aragorn's arrival, but he obviously considers himself subordinate to the king, for though he is the individual who could make the most trouble for Aragorn, he immediately submits in fealty.

But I also figure that he has considerable autonomy, that his raising of armed forces and a navy out of the wealth of his own lands in considered a necessary and permissable evil by the Stewards, in that it lessens the area they have to defend and spares their budget, and they don't dictate to him how he defends his territory. The western part of Gondor looks to him more than Minas Tirith, I would think, as their figure of ultimate authority, yet the Gondorian army would be able to march into his lands without seeking his leave.

I'm still working out exactly who owes fealty to Imrahil and through him to the King, that sort of thing. It continually evolves.



Posted:Jan 27, 2007 20:19 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [40] Thanks for replying, that does seem to make sense. When I said the thing about the feudal system working backward, I was talking about all during Denethor's rule, not just a during the war of the ring.

Inwai
Posted:Jan 30, 2007 15:27 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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