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Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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447 replies


 [51] Pretty soon now, actually. Her wait is almost over.

Soon for us or soon in the timeline of the story? Also looking forward to the re-write of CMC.

I'm trying to decide if he will or not. He's not always at ease with Faramir-bit of a guilt thing happening there, because he thinks Faramir might blame him for Boromir's death.

Almost makes me want to give Andra a hug when you say things like that, except for the fact he'd probably lop my head off if I did. Speaking of lopping heads are we going to see a return of that particular quirk of his?

("She's a warrior type, I'm a warrior type - what gives, Imrahil?")

I never saw that, ad to the fact he's just lost his Love, poor Andra, I bet he's starting to wish Sauron was still around so Heth would be in Ithilien and Boromir would be safe. Not to mention the fact Heth fancied Faramir. Does Andrahar think much of Archery? or is he only into knife fighting, at least Hethlins knife work is not "excreable", has he spotted what happend to Boromirs old knife yet?

How many Swan nights are there anyway?

I have to shut up and go to class now,

Keep writing,

Nargil
Posted:Jan 16, 2006 08:48 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [52] Hello, Isabeau! I've been reading through a lot of the comments made and I thought I'd add a couple here. The discussion about Arwen has me sort of confused because everyone thinks she changed her mind about her choice and I guess I've never read it quite that way. I see someone who is beginning to grieve over a beloved husband who is leaving and is asking him to stay when he clearly could have stayed for at least some time longer. I don't think she regrets her choice, just wants more time with her husband which is a pretty natural thing.

I think I've said to you before that I want Hethlin to end up with Imrahil and I think they will be good for each other in many different ways. She wants to have children, she has said so and had the surgery so that she can and I can't see her going north and marrying a Dunedain and having children there. I don't think she gives anything up by marrying him and she gains a whole lot, he loves her deeply and I think that she is starting to love him as well. He will not keep her caged up and locked away, he has never been that kind of a man.

I always keep in mind that the story is set in Middle-earth and not here and now and so things are much different in that world. Women's roles are different. What Hethlin is doing is extraordinary, what Eowyn did was extraordinary. I don't see that Eowyn marrying Faramir and having children is changing her expected life in a radical way. She was raised as a princess of Rohan - yes, a shield maiden, but a princess who would have been expected to marry well and have and raise children. Going and killing the witch-king was the unexpected, unusual thing and was done out of frustration and longing and anger and lots of different things. But I don't think that marrying Faramir (or anyone she loved) is settling for something less than she could have been. Not in that culture and not in that time. Not in the culture that Tolkien created.

By the way, Isabeau, I do like the way you write Aragorn, who is my favorite LOTR character! :)

Radbooks
Posted:Jan 16, 2006 22:47 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [53] Radbooks wrote: The discussion about Arwen has me sort of confused because everyone thinks she changed her mind about her choice and I guess I've never read it quite that way. I see someone who is beginning to grieve over a beloved husband who is leaving and is asking him to stay when he clearly could have stayed for at least some time longer. I don't think she regrets her choice, just wants more time with her husband which is a pretty natural thing.

Speaking only for my part in that discussion, the problem I have with that part of Arwen's story is her apparent lack of faith that she will join Aragorn in whatever fate awaits Men, and/or her apparent fear that what comes after death will be less than what they shared in Middle Earth. As written it almost seems as if she'd signed away her immortality without fully grasping what would come of it.

Sure it was a time of sadness, if for no other reason than the fact that she must briefly say goodbye to Aragorn, and then say goodbye to her children (for the time being) in order to join her him. And not knowing exactly what lies ahead is going to produce anxiety, of course. But it was Aragorn's time to go, she'd had more than 100 years to prepare herself for the inevitable. To put on him the burden of asking him to stay a bit longer (why? so that in a few more years' time the same anxiety and sadness will have to be faced?) suggests a person who doesn't really appreciate the Gift of Men, and/or is too wrapped up in her own feelings to perceive what is necessary for her spouse. Which doesn't ring true to me given Arwen's wisdom, courage and grace in other circumstances. I see it as a weak point in Tolkien's narrative. But that's just me. I suppose that interpretations will vary according to one's perspective on the nature of love, the afterlife, and probably other existential matters as well.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 00:54 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [54] Isabeau wrote: I must say I prefer the Professor's pedestal to the cultures who paint us as mindless instruments of temptation or worse.

Rebecca wrote: Yeah, for sure. I was recently propositioned by a highly educated married man (a visitor to my university here in the U.S.) who told me that his grown son thought he should have a girlfriend while over here this year. Meanwhile his wife back in ___ is very much alive and well. And I thought he wanted to meet to have an English-xxxx exchange! Mortifying, but to his credit he quickly grasped that I was totally uninterested and he has never been anything but polite to me since. I chalked it up to an unfortunate cultural misunderstanding: I was being friendly and he interpreted that as a signal that I was available to be his mistress, complete with apartment rent paid and other financial perks. Because where he comes from that's what women want, apparently. Yikes. I'd definitely take that pedestal over la carte blanche.


Yikes, indeed! It's good that he back-pedaled so politely though.

Isabeau wrote: if she were to contribute to the successful ruling of Dol Amroth in some way, I don't know if she would be abandoning her path, per se. At least not totally.

Rebecca wrote: There are Imrahil, Elphir, Elchirion, Amrothos, Andrahar, and a bevy of Swan Knights to see to the effective rule and protection of Dol Amroth. Sure, Hethlin could help, but there are already so many highly competent folk who belong there, and they will be the ones making the big decisions (as is proper since it's their principality).


There is truth to that, I suppose.

Rebecca wrote-I guess the understanding of Hethlin that I have is that she's a tough, bright girl who is capable of learning many things and may well come to comport herself with grace and ease in any ballroom in Gondor, but who will always be happiest riding and hunting and wearing breeches.

Oh, most definitely. The populace of Dol Amroth would have to make some adjustments as well-she's not at all like Nimrien. Though I think they would come to appreciate her in time.

Rebecca-In order for her to be effective and make a big difference in Dol Amroth, either Hethlin would really have to change, which I think would be a shame, or all those terrific men in the ruling family of Dol Amroth would have to drop the ball so that she could have room to step in and do stuff.

Somehow, I can't see that happening...

I mean, I hope that Hethlin matures and comes to have more confidence in herself. But she would have to make such radical changes in order to be comfortable and contented in the formal, courtly, cultivated world of Dol Amroth... I think she'd ultimately be wasted there. Whereas if she ends up in the north, there would be so much for her to do -- it's relatively unpopulated and probably in need of some people to oversee things, set and protect boundaries, found new settlements, fight remaining pockets of orcs & trolls and who knows, maybe even the odd dragon!

There is definitely more of the standard sort of adventuring available to her in the north. God knows what festering pockets of darkness still remain....

I think it was Elrohir who pointed out to Hethlin that, having gone to all the trouble of establishing herself as the head of her house, it would be a shame for her deny herself any children. Likewise, it seems to me, it would be a shame for her to deny herself the opportunity to be the one calling the shots, toward goals that she herself has set -- naturally in the service of King and country, but not just following orders or a plan devised by someone else.


Posted:Jan 17, 2006 06:35 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [55] Hmm the html tags seem to be a bit wonky ... everything is in italics ...

Isabeau wrote: if she were to contribute to the successful ruling of Dol Amroth in some way, I don't know if she would be abandoning her path, per se. At least not totally.

Rebecca wrote: There are Imrahil, Elphir, Elchirion, Amrothos, Andrahar, and a bevy of Swan Knights to see to the effective rule and protection of Dol Amroth. Sure, Hethlin could help, but there are already so many highly competent folk who belong there, and they will be the ones making the big decisions (as is proper since it's their principality).

Isabeau: There is truth to that, I suppose.

Rebecca wrote-I guess the understanding of Hethlin that I have is that she's a tough, bright girl who is capable of learning many things and may well come to comport herself with grace and ease in any ballroom in Gondor, but who will always be happiest riding and hunting and wearing breeches.

Isabeau: Oh, most definitely. The populace of Dol Amroth would have to make some adjustments as well-she's not at all like Nimrien. Though I think they would come to appreciate her in time.

Rebecca-In order for her to be effective and make a big difference in Dol Amroth, either Hethlin would really have to change, which I think would be a shame, or all those terrific men in the ruling family of Dol Amroth would have to drop the ball so that she could have room to step in and do stuff.

Isabeau: Somehow, I can't see that happening...

... nor can I. If room is made for Hethlin to act in Dol Amroth, it will not be out of need on their part, but in order to make a place for Imrahil's new bride.

Mind you, her saving the day in Dol Amroth Yule was excellent, and didn't jar me a bit. But she was able to spot the danger because she wasn't in the inner circle of activity, she was watching from the sidelines.

It just occurred to me that if Hethlin ends up with Imrahil, her story will parallel Eowyn's quite a bit -- giving up the strong feelings she felt for a man who loved elsewhere to accept the love of another worthy man, whose path she adopts. I agree with Radbooks's observation that Eowyn was brought up to be a princess, that is, to make a good marriage to man of rank and have a family with him, so her choice of Faramir isn't surprising or "wrong," in the arc of her story.

But to me Hethlin's story seems so different. I don't think she has to be predestined for any particular life -- that's the beauty of it. It's up to her. But when I consider what things have happened that shaped her and put her in the position of being able to choose her own path, I see things that point toward resolution in the north. If for no other reason than if she went up there and made a name for herself, she would be vindicating her father and mother, who had to go into exile because of spitefulness among the northern Dunedain. I think it would be most satisfying if she became a leader of men up there, respected and renowned among people who let their fear of a curse blind them to the valor and worth of Hethlin's father.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 09:25 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [56]  Yikes italicness, got rid of them now I think.

I don't think Heth should marry Imrahil, it would be the easy way out, No more adventures and it is bound to make Andra miserable.

i reckon she should get hitched to one of the swan knights, Liahan or Esteven or somebody.

Nargil
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 09:31 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [57] no the italics are there even without the tags! strange.

Nargil wrote: I don't think Heth should marry Imrahil, it would be the easy way out, No more adventures and it is bound to make Andra miserable.

Yes, no more misery for Andra. He's had more than his share, the poor thing.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 10:30 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [58] Re the italics -- my guess is that somewhere several posts back one of us forgot to close the italics.

Did that work?

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 11:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [59] no it didn't work, sorry for extra posts. Can we edit posts or can Isabeau?

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 11:16 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [60] I am a little confused as to why marrying Imrahil would automatically ban Heth from any further adventures. Having children would certainly put a damper on having them for a while, but that would be the case no matter who she marries.

Somewhere, Imrahil talks about being "the man that Nimrien made me." I don't see any problems (even for feminist advancement in Gonder, so to speak) with Heth becoming "the woman that Imrahil made," before going off after his death to become a great leader in the North or anywhere. In fact, I think that marrying him and experiencing leadership in Dol Amroth is exactly what would best prepare her for great leadership roles in the future. After all, she has at least 80 years after Imri dies, per Tolkien and Isabeau's timelines....

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 17, 2006 14:49 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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