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Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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447 replies


 [31] dpetrash wrote:
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Hope you had a wonderful Christmas and New Years, Isabeau!
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Thanks! The same to all of you!
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(dpetrash)And thanks for passing on the portrait request to E.W. I hope her muse is inspired by the scene from S.S. Ch.2, with Andra and Glorfindel facing off after "double kill" is called! Maybe with Imri/Heth/Faramir/Elrohir/etc. in the background watching? Or is that a little too blatant attempt to get all my favorite fanfic characters in one picture? (Hee!)
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Well, I passed it on. Not promising anything but we were looking at models tonight. I don't know if you'll get the whole group, but she does like drawing Glorfindel and perhaps that particular image will appeal to her.
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(dpetrash) In that interest, I'll repost my question(s) from the review of Silver Swan, Ch. 3:
So if Imrahil and Heth did get married or become lovers, could they speak mind to mind or at least sense something of each other? (Their mind skills would seem to be a rather unique ability in both their cases - a remnant of purer-than-usual elven/Numenorean strain?)
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That's what I'm thinking. I don't know if they could speak mind-to-mind-Imrahil doesn't possess that particular gift like Elrohir does. They might be able to sense something of each other though, have a sort of empathic connection.
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(dpetrash)I am pulling rather hard for Imri and Heth, even though he's now the one being unfairly possessive instead of Faramir. (Not until after her training is complete though, and she's gotten some experience in command maybe, as this is truly an opportunity for development she would not get again.) Would he be more relaxed if he hadnít professed his love to Heth, I wonder? He wasn't nearly so moody when first meeting with Hethlin after his proposal.
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That was something I think was an act of desperation and against his own better judgement. And I think he believes that if Heth goes North he won't ever see her again. He's pretty sure that once she gets up there, she'll stay and marry some Northern man, if Elrohir doesn't succumb. So his current moodiness is because he is fearing a permanent parting from a woman he loves.
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(dpetrash)>Until he gives up on Heth accepting his suit...<
Uh, oh. Is that a sad foreshadowing for us Imrahil/Heth pullers? :(
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Not at all. Don't worry about that.


Posted:Jan 7, 2006 23:01 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [32] Nargil wrote:How come some of your stories are slightly different here compared to how they are on ff.net? just odd comments like the bit about not looking after Elchirion in Discovery aren't there, I like these versions better.

That's because I probably didn't upload the latest version correctly over there. I thought I had! But I edited everything before I put it up here, and it was the TFF versions of Discovery and Discretion that I entered in the Mithrils last year. I'll have to go fix that-thanks for the heads-up.

I'm working on editing CMC a bit at a time. Perhaps I ought to start posting it here a couple of chapters at a time-it would encourage me to finish the edit, which has been a bit piecemeal to date.


Posted:Jan 7, 2006 23:07 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [33] Wow! Lots of interesting discussion about the relative merits of Heth's suitors. It would serve you all right if a horse threw Eowyn into a tree at some point and Heth finally ended up with Faramir. Except that Una would never speak to me again! The Horse-wench is going to live a long and happy life, if she has her way...

Or I could hook her up with Amrothos...

Aragorn has pretty well expressed the big hurdle to Heth and Elrohir committing themselves-not only would Elrohir be forsworn and not go West, but Elladan might be lost to mortality as well. Can she bring herself to do that?

As for Imrahil, gossip would be somewhat troublesome to him, but not a major issue, so long as Heth comported herself as a faithful wife. He certainly doesn't suffer from self-esteem issues, and he could handle it. I think his biggest problem would be starting over as a father to young children at a time in his life when being a grandfather is more appropriate. I know from personal experience (I'm 48 with a 9-year-old son, and my husband is 11 years older than me), that that can be tough sometimes-the energy to deal simply isn't always there. Admittedly, Imrahil has a large support group, but I can't picture him as the sort of man who leaves the nurturing of his children to others.

Heth too would have a big adjustment to make-being a ruler of a cultured city like Dol Amroth would be a very big change for her, and require her to learn diplomatic skills and polish her public image in ways that would be very foreign to her.

On the plus side, when Imrahil said he wouldn't make her give up her sword, he meant it. Of course, the same would be true of Elrohir.


Posted:Jan 7, 2006 23:22 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [34] Or I could hook her up with Amrothos...
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Now THAT would be interesting. He could come up with some excellent weapons for Hethlin. Perhaps he could invent a gun! They're both so unconventional -- I could see it working. Except he doesn't care to dance. But she could teach him. And he could go North with her for years and years without shirking any duties to Dol Amroth.

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Aragorn has pretty well expressed the big hurdle to Heth and Elrohir committing themselves-not only would Elrohir be forsworn and not go West, but Elladan might be lost to mortality as well. Can she bring herself to do that?
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I'm puzzled by this attitude on the part of Aragorn, and Hethlin too for that matter. She's a humble girl, but she can't imagine that Elrohir might choose to stay in Middle Earth for reasons besides his love for her (if indeed he does love her)? He said that he'd been arguing with Elrond for many years about that very issue, long before he knew Hethlin.

And Aragorn surely knows this. In fact, I've been wondering if part of Elrohir's lingering anger toward his foster brother is due to the fact that by wedding Arwen, Aragorn has placed Elrohir (and Elladan) in a real conundrum -- now if they choose to stay, Elrond & Celebrian will lose all their children. If prior to falling in love with Aragorn Arwen had intended to travel West with her father, the twins could have considered staying on in Middle Earth without imposing *such* a high price on their parents -- they'd still have Arwen with them. Elrond still wouldn't have liked it but it would have been a slightly less bitter pill to swallow.

So yeah, it is quite presumptuous of Aragorn to advise anyone about depriving Elrond of his children. Except that in saying that, one removes responsibility from Arwen -- it was her choice to make. Elrohir's anger is misplaced -- it rightly should be directed at Arwen if at anyone. As Aragorn himself observed to Hethlin, you can't command another's heart. Arwen is her own person, who for her own reasons opted to give priority to the love she feels for Aragorn over going West. Possibly she has other reasons for staying in Middle Earth, who knows? But Aragorn isn't responsible for her choice; to suggest that he is is to strip her of self-determination. I guess he could have refused to wed her despite the feelings they had for each other ... but would that have allowed her to live happily ever after in Valinor?

I can see of course why he would feel remorseful and guilty. I understand that for an elf to fade and die (and be forever separated from her kin) is tragic (although the Gift of Men always seems to get short shrift in such analyses. I suppose because aging sucks no matter what might come after). But really the guilt can't be given too much room, because then Aragorn (or Hethlin) would be attributing too much power to themselves over choices made by Arwen (or Elrohir).

Maybe Elrohir isn't the one for Hethlin, but I don't see why he can't be. I guess I would find it hard to swallow if he chose to stay in Middle Earth solely for the sake of love for Hethlin... but if he's already got lots of reasons for staying, loving Hethlin could be the thing that tips the scales for him. Or sweetens the pot he was already planning on taking. But all of that -- his other reasons for staying, and loving or not loving Hethlin -- are up to him! Not Hethlin. Not Aragorn. Not even Elrond. Everyone thinks they have Elrohir's best interests at heart, but surely a 3,000 year old being can make his own choices. If I were in Elrohir's shoes I'd be highly vexed by everyone trying to prod me in a direction I don't necessarily want to go in, just to ease their consciences, or because they've made a choice and want me to come along with them. I'm sure that Elrond really wouldn't be happy if his son(s) lived a discontented eternity in Valinor. What fun that would be for everyone!

And if Elladan did base his choice on Elrohir's decision... that's his choice! Not Elrohir's. Certainly not Hethlin's.

I'm really intrigued by Elrohir's relationship with Hethlin. Puzzled and intrigued. I think they could be good together in the long run, although I could see her being happy with someone else too. Perhaps Amrothos! But I don't see why the relationship between Hethlin and Elrohir must be a non-starter. If ever there was a human woman worthy of the love of an elf, it's Hethlin! (I've always found it slightly irksome that the few elf-human pairings on record were always between elven females and human males. I know, Aegnor & Andreth, but that didn't come to pass because he held back.)

OK, back to working on my paper...

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 8, 2006 00:45 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [35] Darn it, I told myself I was not going to ask any more questions until you'd had a chance to post another chapter or story, but I can't help myself.... How much of Hethlin's history and/or accomplishments (like the 29 orcs at Min-rimmon) does Andrahar know at this point? He's such a complex character that I have a hard time reading his attitude towards Hethlin, but it seems from SS Ch.1 he thinks of her as an immature girl - which is in part true - without notable accomplishments and sufferings to mitigate that immaturity. Of course, as her instructor he would necessarily need to project a strict and stern demeanor no matter what his true thoughts about her. And I haven't forgotten Boromir's reflections on Andrahar in Discretion: "It was a favorite pastime of esquires smarting under his rigorous instruction to suggest that he had been spawned in the slag pits of Mordor." Ha ha!

I had not reflected on Imrahil's difficulties in starting over as a father at 65+, no matter his family's long life-span. I can relate - I'm 38 with three kids, ages four and under, and we are thinking of having another before I turn 40. Gluttons for punishment, I guess!

Thanks for all the generous sharing of insight into your characters!

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 9, 2006 23:13 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [36] How much of Hethlin's history and/or accomplishments (like the 29 orcs at Min-rimmon) does Andrahar know at this point?

I'm curious about that too. I guess I assumed that most of Andrahar's animosity towards Hethlin is on behalf of Imrahil -- anyone who would turn Imri down has got to be contemptible in Andrahar's book. Although he was hostile with her about letting Imrahil get injured even before Imrahil proposed.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 10, 2006 13:25 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [37] One also thinks he may only count 11 of the orcs, she shot the others, would also like to know though,

Nargil
Posted:Jan 10, 2006 18:51 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [38] I'm puzzled by this attitude on the part of Aragorn, and Hethlin too for that matter. She's a humble girl, but she can't imagine that Elrohir might choose to stay in Middle Earth for reasons besides his love for her (if indeed he does love her)? He said that he'd been arguing with Elrond for many years about that very issue, long before he knew Hethlin.

I think she can imagine it, it's just that she would feel like a murderer if he stayed. Like you said, the Gift of Men gets short shrift in these sorts of debates, probably because neither the Elves nor the Men know what truly comes after for Men, therefore it's a little difficult to see it as such a bargain, particularly when the advantages of the Elven side of things-immortality and basically eternal youth are so obvious.

And Aragorn surely knows this. In fact, I've been wondering if part of Elrohir's lingering anger toward his foster brother is due to the fact that by wedding Arwen, Aragorn has placed Elrohir (and Elladan) in a real conundrum -- now if they choose to stay, Elrond & Celebrian will lose all their children. If prior to falling in love with Aragorn Arwen had intended to travel West with her father, the twins could have considered staying on in Middle Earth without imposing *such* a high price on their parents -- they'd still have Arwen with them. Elrond still wouldn't have liked it but it would have been a slightly less bitter pill to swallow.

That's a very good point, and there may very well be some truth in it, as well as a bit of a feeling of betrayal on Elrohir's part. Here they go to all the trouble of making Aragorn part of the family, only to have him take an action that will sunder that family completely.

So yeah, it is quite presumptuous of Aragorn to advise anyone about depriving Elrond of his children. Except that in saying that, one removes responsibility from Arwen -- it was her choice to make. Elrohir's anger is misplaced -- it rightly should be directed at Arwen if at anyone. As Aragorn himself observed to Hethlin, you can't command another's heart. Arwen is her own person, who for her own reasons opted to give priority to the love she feels for Aragorn over going West. Possibly she has other reasons for staying in Middle Earth, who knows? But Aragorn isn't responsible for her choice; to suggest that he is is to strip her of self-determination. I guess he could have refused to wed her despite the feelings they had for each other ... but would that have allowed her to live happily ever after in Valinor?

Another good point, and I fear I might be responding to Tolkien's rather one-dimensional depiction of Arwen when I have Elrohir react in this way and not give his sister any credit for having a mind of her own. Arwen has always been difficult for me, and the one thing I absolutely despise is the way that Tolkien makes her sort of go back on her bargain there at the end. I've read various peoples' justifications for it, but it always seemed to be that he totally robbed her of any dignity.

Maybe Elrohir isn't the one for Hethlin, but I don't see why he can't be. I guess I would find it hard to swallow if he chose to stay in Middle Earth solely for the sake of love for Hethlin... but if he's already got lots of reasons for staying, loving Hethlin could be the thing that tips the scales for him. Or sweetens the pot he was already planning on taking. But all of that -- his other reasons for staying, and loving or not loving Hethlin -- are up to him! Not Hethlin. Not Aragorn. Not even Elrond. Everyone thinks they have Elrohir's best interests at heart, but surely a 3,000 year old being can make his own choices. If I were in Elrohir's shoes I'd be highly vexed by everyone trying to prod me in a direction I don't necessarily want to go in, just to ease their consciences, or because they've made a choice and want me to come along with them. I'm sure that Elrond really wouldn't be happy if his son(s) lived a discontented eternity in Valinor. What fun that would be for everyone!

And I suspect that he might very well be discontent in Valinor. In fact, I'm almost sure of it.

I'm really intrigued by Elrohir's relationship with Hethlin. Puzzled and intrigued. I think they could be good together in the long run, although I could see her being happy with someone else too. Perhaps Amrothos! But I don't see why the relationship between Hethlin and Elrohir must be a non-starter. If ever there was a human woman worthy of the love of an elf, it's Hethlin! (I've always found it slightly irksome that the few elf-human pairings on record were always between elven females and human males. I know, Aegnor & Andreth, but that didn't come to pass because he held back.)

It would be a historic first, wouldn't it? You make some tempting arguments, Rebecca!


Posted:Jan 12, 2006 20:00 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [39] Darn it, I told myself I was not going to ask any more questions until you'd had a chance to post another chapter or story, but I can't help myself.... How much of Hethlin's history and/or accomplishments (like the 29 orcs at Min-rimmon) does Andrahar know at this point? He's such a complex character that I have a hard time reading his attitude towards Hethlin, but it seems from SS Ch.1 he thinks of her as an immature girl - which is in part true - without notable accomplishments and sufferings to mitigate that immaturity. Of course, as her instructor he would necessarily need to project a strict and stern demeanor no matter what his true thoughts about her.

Hmmmmm. I figure that he at least knows what Imrahil knows-her exploit on the Pelennor, how she conducted herself in the attack where Imrahil was wounded, and what happened at the inn. Not much pleased at the inadvertent nuzgul that occured when I contemplated whether he would pick Faramir's brain about her....

I had not reflected on Imrahil's difficulties in starting over as a father at 65+, no matter his family's long life-span. I can relate - I'm 38 with three kids, ages four and under, and we are thinking of having another before I turn 40. Gluttons for punishment, I guess!

I'll say! A nine-year-old and a baby at 38 were more than enough for me! You must strive to control that masochistic streak. Of course, I was told that having a youngster at that age keeps you young, which means you're good for about 120 at least!

Thanks for all the generous sharing of insight into your characters!

You're very welcome. I enjoy it, and sometimes it motivates/inspires me as well.


Posted:Jan 12, 2006 20:08 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [40] I'm curious about that too. I guess I assumed that most of Andrahar's animosity towards Hethlin is on behalf of Imrahil -- anyone who would turn Imri down has got to be contemptible in Andrahar's book. Although he was hostile with her about letting Imrahil get injured even before Imrahil proposed.

Letting Imrahil get injured is the biggest sin you can commit in Andrahar's book. And he is probably also offended on Imrahil's behalf over the rejection. But the biggest part of Andrahar's problem with Hethlin is that she upsets what he considers the natural order of things. He is a bit of a misogynist, in that he prefers his women womanly (in the limited manner he choses to interact with them). It's probably due to the culture he was born in. He has taught Lothiriel a little bit about defending herself, but that was always with the intent that she would simply be doing what she could to protect herself until some man came along to properly defend her. Part of him considers Hethlin to be brazen and impertinent in her desire to play a man's role.


Posted:Jan 12, 2006 20:19 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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