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Isabeau's Journal
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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448 replies


 [351] And I don't think there is a story (yet) that describes Heth's actual decision to go to Dol Amroth.

You are correct, Denise-I've not written it yet. I would REALLY like the muse to take up with Silver Swan again, but she doesn't seem inclined to do so.

Isabeau
Posted:May 12, 2008 23:07 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [352] Eressa wrote: Elrond is my favorite character in Tolkien's world. And I have to admit that reading CMC again, I am torn about his depiction. Would Elrond really try to force a promise on one of his sons I wonder?... and now looking at his life, everyone he loved in canon walked away from him for some reason or another - , his parents, elros, maglor, celebrian, arwen, elrohir and elladan.

I am a bit conflicted about how I depicted Elrond in CMC myself, because he's one of my favorite characters as well. He perhaps accepts things with better grace than I have depicted-my Elrond is very much grieving the loss of his daughter and fears the loss of his sons as well, perhaps at least in part because he knows he will be leaving soon and having to face Celebrian again.

I know it can be argued both ways, that the twins did go with Celeborn - but what was stopping the twins from sailing with their father?

It pretty much can, and my interpretation was based on what you had observed as well-that the twins seemed to enjoy hanging about with the Rangers rather than their Elven kindred. I was also selfishly motivated because I wanted to use them again in future stories, which wouldn't have happened had they left with Elrond.

Isabeau
Posted:May 12, 2008 23:13 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [353] But the twin's did not sail with their father (as it is in canon) so your interpretation Isabeau is not an interpretation but what really happened. What I keep on pondering about is whether the twins died in middle earth - I keep on thinking one day a letter that Tolkien wrote will appear and decide for us! - but then maybe its a great mystery, did they sail or did they not sail. My 2 cents is that they stayed, if they had sailed I think Tolkien would have been more explicit in it. In a weird way it makes sense for the predhel race to die out, as the choice of being an elf or mortal is taken away once the twins and arwen die.

Eressa
Posted:May 13, 2008 20:00 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [354] Eressa wrote: My 2 cents is that they stayed, if they had sailed I think Tolkien would have been more explicit in it.

I agree with you, Eressa. It's possible that Tolkien intended them to go to Valinor in the end and either simply neglected to write about it, or never got around to doing it. But that seems unlikely to me, since he went to the trouble of not sending them off with Elrond. And he didn't mention them in the context of Celeborn's eventual journey to Valinor.

In a weird way it makes sense for the predhel race to die out, as the choice of being an elf or mortal is taken away once the twins and arwen die.

Well it didn't die out entirely, since Elrond lives on in Valinor. And it was never possible for it to remain in Middle Earth -- if they wanted to embrace immortality, Elrond and his children had to go eventually to Valinor, no?

Gwídhiel
Posted:May 13, 2008 20:25 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [355] I was reading HOME the other day and the quote which described Celeborn's sailing to Valinor :
"with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth." (FotR, p. 25)


This passage is, as so many are in Tolkien, ambiguous. This is what the Tolkien wiki says in the entry "Elder days":

"During the Second and Third Age, the term referred to the First Age and before, but in the Fourth Age the term began to be applied to all three ages which came before: a time before the dominance of Men and the dwindling of the Elves and other races."

So either you count Celeborn as the only (known) Elf left from the Elder days (apart from Círdan, I might add); or you can count the twins, too.

Somewhere it says that they were allowed to delay their choice beyond Elrond's departure for a time (IIRC, somewhere in Letters), and as there is no definite time limit given, who knows their final decision? They could have gone with Celeborn, or they could have gone some time before him.

I know it can be argued both ways, that the twins did go with Celeborn - but what was stopping the twins from sailing with their father?

I personally believe that they stayed for Arwen's sake, and once she died, they left with their grandfather. And that Elrond was glad about this decision, which left Arwen not totally without her own kin who could understand her in ways even Aragorn wouldn't always be able to.

I understand if I was Elrond I would be desperate to secure the fact that my children would come back to me, all I can feel is an immense sadness for Elrond, as he loved the people in his life so much in that he was able to let them go and fufil their own wants and destinies.

Waaaah! Yes, "as kind as summer", isn't he? And he had to think about Celebrían, too: whether their children's absence would somehow effect her health negatively, when she doesn't know what all has happened since she left M-e - Gondor and the Ring War and Aragorn etc. She can't talk with Arwen and see for herself that Arwen chose what was best for her, freely and deliberately.

Imhiriel
Posted:May 14, 2008 00:05 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [356] Well it didn't die out entirely, since Elrond lives on in Valinor. And it was never possible for it to remain in Middle Earth -- if they wanted to embrace immortality, Elrond and his children had to go eventually to Valinor, no?

Gwídhiel what I meant is that there were no more elves who had to make a choice anymore. Elrond already had made his decision, and once Arwen, and the twins had decided to stay and remain, then there were no more mixed race elves who could choose their faiths. I thought it made sense for Tolkien to have this strain pass on and become part of the mortal/human world.

Best,
Eressa

Eressa
Posted:May 14, 2008 05:00 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [357] Just a quick question Isabeau but what you know of canon in your opinion do you think the twins die in middle earth or go to valinor?

Best,
Eressa


Posted:May 14, 2008 18:04 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [358] Eressa wrote: Gwídhiel what I meant is that there were no more elves who had to make a choice anymore. Elrond already had made his decision, and once Arwen, and the twins had decided to stay and remain, then there were no more mixed race elves who could choose their faiths. I thought it made sense for Tolkien to have this strain pass on and become part of the mortal/human world.

Oh, I see ... well, I think I see! These existential questions are tricky! Anyway, I take you to mean that, of those who were allowed to choose their fates (i.e.: Lúthien, Dior, Elwing & her brothers, Eärendil, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elladan, & Elrohir) a substantial portion -- nearly 50% -- chose the fate of Men, if you believe that the twins stayed in Middle Earth. Is that what you're saying? If so, then I agree that is a sensible/appropriate way to wrap up that issue. My personal view is that, while we Tolkien fans might find the Elves fascinating, and the Men of Gondor/Numenor/etc. thought the Firstborn had the better deal, the reality is that probably in many ways Men's fate is better. I don't think that eternal life is as good as it might sound at first.

Of course, perhaps I need to believe that to avoid succumbing to despair about my unavoidable mortality (and the increasing number of white hairs I see when I look in the mirror)! ;-)

Gwídhiel
Posted:May 14, 2008 18:31 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [359] Gwídhiel think of the snowsteel when you see the white hairs :) - anyway I agree with you that the prospect of eternal life is something which does not appeal when thought about in a deeper sense. What I find interesting about the twins is that after their mother's attack in the redhorn pass, that they according to canon 'ride with the dunedain' to avenge her, by trying to get rid of the evil that stains arda. What I find interesting is the pyschology behind this moment - does the event of their mother's attack bring the twins closer to mortality, that they have an idea of the effect of loss and death, and hence a deeper understanding of the mortal condition. Maybe this lets them live life more intune with the dunedain than their elven kin who do not go and explore or fight in middle earth but stay within the elven realms. I feel that this action for 'revenge' against the orcs as more of a human reaction than a detached elven action - similar to the attitudes of the elves when they were young in the 1st age.

I find it interesting to note that the twins are mentioned as "scouting" and even helped in one of the wars that the rohan people fought (can't really remember which one) - they are much much more actively and physically involved in the politics of middle earth than any other elves that I can think about in the 3rd age. In fact I feel that the twins act more like the dunedain than elves - it is intersting to note that their names speak of the Numenorian heritage (Star Knight and Man of the west). Maybe being elven/human they felt a kin with the dunedain, high men who have both the same mix of the blood as they.

Eressa
Posted:May 14, 2008 19:27 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [360] Hey everyone!

I've been a lurker around the really brilliant Unabeauverse stories for quite some time, and I found this megathread trying to find the answer to a question I had.

First thing I found was the timeline of the unabeauverse stories on the first page of this journal - which was really helpful in sorting out every story's relationship to the others. I saw a name that I hadn't seen before though - 'The Last Log of the Foam-flyer'. It's marked as a WIP in 2005.

Question is: Was 'The Last Log of the Foam-flyer' ever completed? Or is it just that I don't know where to look?

And to reopen the 'Who will Heth nest with' debate *mischevious grin* - a while back someone commented about Faramir's vision in front of Heth in CMC, and how they extrapolated who Heth will nest with from that. I always interpreted it as a reference back to Luthien and Beren - the birds as a reference to their shape-changing adventures and unique experience of Death. I thought Faramir just had another of those historical flashbacks, like Numernor's wave - but now thinking back I can see it might be an indication of the future instead. Is there any authorly confirmation of whether the vision is of the future or the past?

And finally, re: Eressa's comment about the twin's 'Numenorian heritage (Star Knight and Man of the west)'. It's a very interesting point (actually a lot of discussion here is very intersting) - but I think it can equally be taken the other way. "Elrohir' and 'Elladan' can be translated as 'Star Knight' and 'Man of the West' but equally 'elf-knight' and 'elf-wise person', 'el' being ambiguous between 'star' and 'elf' while 'adan' can be literally 'man, mortal' or more towards connotations of 'wise person'. I think Elrond was pretty clever in coming up with names that can be interpreted in Dunedain or elven tradition, leaving it up to the twins to really decide. Anyway, that's my two cents.

illereyn

illereyn
Posted:Jul 19, 2008 23:02 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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