Tolkien Fan Fiction Home Tolkien Fan FictionAll the tales of the Valar and the Elves are so knit together that one may scarce expound any one without needing to set forth the whole of their great history.
Read Journal Entry
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Journal Main Page  Isabeau's Journal  Back
Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
Profile:Isabeau


Blog_display


:

Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


  Post A Comment  E-mail Author

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 [35] 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45
447 replies


 [341] I like your new name, Rebecca! And I've been enjoying the conversation very much. Sorry I've been quiet.

I feel very sorry for poor Elrohir, he's caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place. There wasn't going to be any way he was going to leave for Valinor when his father left, he simply wasn't ready, and that argument was only exacerbated when he took up with Hethlin. I am sure that Elrond was certain when that happened that he was going to lose Elrohir and probably by extension Elladan. I would like to have been a fly on the mallorn for possible conversations between Elrond and his father-in-law-Celeborn. Celeborn might have come in for a bit of grief since Elrond might believe that his decision to remain has only encouraged his grandsons' recalcitrance. (Drat! Where did that nuzgul come from?)

And a really big obstacle between Elrohir and Heth having anything lasting is Heth herself. She sees loving him as a death sentence and she doesn't want to kill him. She doesn't have the First-born appreciation for death, she's mired deep in that Numenorean fear of it. It's no gift to her and no favor to him that she can see. She believes that his destiny as an Elf is far superior to anything he could have with her. He'd have to be very persuasive to get her to change her mind about this. Melting elf-puppy-dog eyes just wouldn't do it. I'm not saying it couldn't ever happen, just that it would take a very long time and a lot of persuasion.

I'm hoping the MEFAs will give me the impetus in the next month to finish at least one of my WIPS. Blackbow and Kin-Strife probably have the best chance, and after that Ultimatums. Dwimordene is pushing hard for the latter, and I would really like to oblige her if I could. After that I could go back to Silver Swan or start White Eagle. Which is what I'd really like to do at present, because Heth's career in Dol Amroth isn't as interesting to me at present as the war in Erebor, which is full of dramatic happenings and which I've sort of been working myself up to in Passages.

Isabeau
Posted:May 5, 2008 11:54 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [342] Isabeau wrote: I like your new name, Rebecca! And I've been enjoying the conversation very much. Sorry I've been quiet.

Thanks, Isabeau! Rather unimaginatively, I picked a close-ish translation of the original Hebrew meaning of Rebecca ("bound" or "to bind"). As for your participation in these discussions, I think the general consensus is that the more time you get to devote to your writing, the happier we your loyal readers are!

Plus I'm uncomfortably aware of the fact that I'm asserting my interpretations/opinions/preferences regarding characters that you have created. I'm pleased as punch, and grateful, that you've responded here!

I feel very sorry for poor Elrohir, he's caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place.

I concur, 100%.

There wasn't going to be any way he was going to leave for Valinor when his father left, he simply wasn't ready, and that argument was only exacerbated when he took up with Hethlin. I am sure that Elrond was certain when that happened that he was going to lose Elrohir and probably by extension Elladan. I would like to have been a fly on the mallorn for possible conversations between Elrond and his father-in-law-Celeborn.

Oh yeah -- me too! My bet is that Elrond would come out of it with a new appreciation for a perspective besides his own on the matter of Valinor. I would also be willing to bet that Galadriel remained silent throughout the exchange.

Celeborn might have come in for a bit of grief since Elrond might believe that his decision to remain has only encouraged his grandsons' recalcitrance. (Drat! Where did that nuzgul come from?)

Down nuzgul, down!

Yeah, Celeborn almost certainly would be seen as being less-than-helpful by Elrond. I've always liked Celeborn, and I like how he appears in your stories.

And a really big obstacle between Elrohir and Heth having anything lasting is Heth herself. She sees loving him as a death sentence and she doesn't want to kill him. She doesn't have the First-born appreciation for death, she's mired deep in that Numenorean fear of it. It's no gift to her and no favor to him that she can see. She believes that his destiny as an Elf is far superior to anything he could have with her.

Oh, yes, I've always understood that. My interpretation is that it was part and parcel of her emotional immaturity, somewhat akin to a typical modern teen's wish to be unique while at the same time just wanting to be like all of her peers.

Whether or not Hethlin ever comes to see death as a gift rather than a curse (that would be a tall order, given the prevailing Numenorean perspective; I wonder what Aragorn thinks about it? Faramir?), if she were to ever have a chance at lasting love with Elrohir, it seems like she first would need to value herself much more than she did during CMC, and would at the same time need to appreciate that just because her life intersects with someone else's doesn't mean that all of their subsequent actions/choices would be her responsibility. That's where I see the contradictory parallel with a modern teen: Heth needs to realize that she is important and worthwhile, but isn't so important that she'd be single-handedly responsible for changing anyone's destiny but her own.

I hope she'll come to see that, no matter who she ends up with!

He'd have to be very persuasive to get her to change her mind about this. Melting elf-puppy-dog eyes just wouldn't do it. I'm not saying it couldn't ever happen, just that it would take a very long time and a lot of persuasion.

Yeah, no doubt! But who wouldn't want to see those elven puppy eyes in action?

I'm hoping the MEFAs will give me the impetus in the next month to finish at least one of my WIPS. Blackbow and Kin-Strife probably have the best chance, and after that Ultimatums. Dwimordene is pushing hard for the latter, and I would really like to oblige her if I could.

Hard to argue with Dwimordene -- I really enjoy Ultimatums! I think after CMC/SS it's my favorite of your stories.

After that I could go back to Silver Swan or start White Eagle. Which is what I'd really like to do at present, because Heth's career in Dol Amroth isn't as interesting to me at present as the war in Erebor, which is full of dramatic happenings and which I've sort of been working myself up to in Passages.

Yay! I agree that Hethlin in Dol Amroth is kind of uninteresting. She could be up to so much more in the North! And if Imrahil wants to come along with her so that Denise and lots of other folks will be happy on the romance front, I'll be following the story just as avidly as I would if her heart were engaged elsewhere! ;-) My strongest feeling is that Hethlin's story really seems to belong in the North. Whether or not she ends up with Elrohir is less important to me (although obviously I like the idea of that pairing); although I have felt it incumbent upon me to defend the poor guy, since everyone seemed to write him off as utterly implausible for Hethlin. I really love your depiction of their interactions ... I relish more of them! Even if they don't end up together in the long run.

Good luck with your writing -- I look forward to the updates!

GwŪdhiel
Posted:May 5, 2008 14:29 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [343] Dwimordene is pushing hard for the latter, and I would really like to oblige her if I could.

Yes, my precious, oblige me... *gollum* Ultimatums!

Dwim
Posted:May 7, 2008 13:38 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [344] I love all three, although I'd say Blackbow for the clifee and because Heth and swan knights together are hilarious. Although there's no Andra in that. Write what the muse inspires you too if you want to write the White Eagle (I guess it's a Hethlin quartet? I forgot Blackbow *blush*) go ahead. Maybe you could do the silver swan as more of a group of shoet fics like DAY rather than a novell like captain?

Nargil
Posted:May 7, 2008 17:10 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [345] "And a really big obstacle between Elrohir and Heth having anything lasting is Heth herself. She sees loving him as a death sentence and she doesn't want to kill him. She doesn't have the First-born appreciation for death, she's mired deep in that Numenorean fear of it. It's no gift to her and no favor to him that she can see. She believes that his destiny as an Elf is far superior to anything he could have with her." (quotes from Isabeau)

Its sad that if Hethlin is the massive barrier to having a relationship with Elrohir that she is bascially holding him up to ransom regarding going to Valinor, similar to what Elrond is asking of him. All I can think of is Earendil who desired to be a human but through the choice of his wife "felt" he needed to become an elf. Elrohir I think, being the product of a mixed heritage knows what he is - an elf. I don't want to brin in popular culture here, but Halle Berry even though she is mixed race, her white mother brought her up with an extremely strong identity, cos she felt that people would in the USA label her firstly as being black. Now that she is having a child with a white man, people see this is as a mixed marriage. But in reality Halle is just as white as she is black, its just cos she LOOKs more black than white. Elrohir looks more elven than human, and he probably feels more elven, but his attachment to middle earth is something that goes beyond being elven, its the human feeling of anxiousness and not knowing your correct place in the world.

Regarding Hethlin's I completely agree with Rebecca's idea of Hethlins emotional maturity regarding her place in the scheme of Arda. Yes she suffered greatly with the loss of her parents and family in a horrific way. But Tolkien himself dealt with death, longevity and ageing in his whole body of work. During his early years, Tolkien endured first the passing of both parents and then the deaths of most of his friends during the First World War. It was not surprising that a search for the meaning of life and death became a preoccupation of Tolkien. Tolkienís Roman Catholic faith underpinned his thoughts about mortality. He also found solace in Northern myths that held that there was intrinsic worth to courage in the face of our inevitable demise. He took an opposing stand to those who felt that bioengineering would allow us to extend human life span virtually without limit. Although Tolkien acknowledged the urge to try to escape our mortality, LOTR is a story about accepting the need to let go with all of the attendant regrets and sorrow. And once Hethlin reaches this in her emotional journey, then maybe she would think about her destiny as a human is no better or worse than Elrohir's destiny as a predhel.

p.s I love Lulu and my bound copy of CMC!

Eressa
Posted:May 7, 2008 19:44 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [346] Rebecca said: She could be up to so much more in the North! And if Imrahil wants to come along with her...

Well, he does enjoy new adventures so much! *g*

Iím really enjoying the renewed discussion, especially about Heth's opinion of the Gift of Men. For some reason I didn't catch that from my reading - or at least not so strongly - but it is very obviously there when I think back on it.

I really agree with the Elrohir posts, too. Those have always been my reads on his actions regarding Heth, and on his personal preferences re: Valinor.

I have varying opinions about Hethís maturity. With the Gift of Men, I think she's on par with most Gondorians, save only the wisest like Faramir, Aragorn, and Imrahil. On some levels, I think she's pretty mature for her age - you don't go through the crucibles she has without developing some sort of understanding about what is important in life. And then, there is what I see as her romantic (emotional) immaturity, accompanied as it is by her poor self-image, with scars that go much deeper than just the physical ones.

Iím with Rebecca, of course, in wanting very much to see what happens in Rhun, for several reasons. We have gotten glimpses of Hethís esquire life via DAY and now ďPassagesĒ, and perhaps thatís why it might feel less... urgent? to me to have more. However, there are several really intriguing issues hanging in SS right now, which still make it such an important WiP for me. When does Aragorn give Heth her star? How does she handle Eowyn and Faramirís betrothal? How does Heth finally (!) come to decide on Dol Amroth? How do all the assorted players handle the news? So much good story to uncover yet... Like all of Imrahil and Andraís backstories, I think itíll be fascinating when we get to read Hethís, no matter how much of her future has been revealed by then.

I do wish you luck on your priority WiPs, Isabeau, particularly those that are so close to being finished. Iím not a writer, but I definitely sympathize with the desire to bring long-hanging projects to completion! And all of them are so very enjoyable...

Denise
Posted:May 11, 2008 19:01 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [347] Denise - what story do you refer to by the name "Day" and what story is it where Heth makes her choice to go to Dol Amroth?

Many Thanks
Eressa


Posted:May 12, 2008 00:24 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [348] Hi, Eressa,

I'm sorry about tossing around an obscure acronym: DAY is "Dol Amroth Yule". And I don't think there is a story (yet) that describes Heth's actual decision to go to Dol Amroth. We have "Silver Swan" where she is close to the point at which she has to decide, but is still vacillating; and DAY, "Reparation", "Passages", etc. where she is already an esquire. (Please correct me if I've forgotten something, like Heth or someone else thinking of her decision point in a flashback/retrospective...)

Denise
Posted:May 12, 2008 03:39 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [349] Elrond is my favorite character in Tolkien's world. And I have to admit that reading CMC again, I am torn about his depiction. Would Elrond really try to force a promise on one of his sons I wonder?... and now looking at his life, everyone he loved in canon walked away from him for some reason or another - , his parents, elros, maglor, celebrian, arwen, elrohir and elladan. I was reading HOME the other day and the quote which described Celeborn's sailing to Valinor :
"with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth." (FotR, p. 25)

Made me think again - that Celeborn sailed without Elrond's sons. That they had stayed and died in middle earth, that was the land they fought for and died for. Even in the books the twins seem more involved with the Dunedain than with the elves.

I know it can be argued both ways, that the twins did go with Celeborn - but what was stopping the twins from sailing with their father? I understand if I was Elrond I would be desperate to secure the fact that my children would come back to me, all I can feel is an immense sadness for Elrond, as he loved the people in his life so much in that he was able to let them go and fufil their own wants and destinies. *Sniffs* - I love that elf

Eressa
Posted:May 12, 2008 08:51 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [350] Denise wrote: I have varying opinions about Hethís maturity. With the Gift of Men, I think she's on par with most Gondorians, save only the wisest like Faramir, Aragorn, and Imrahil.

I agree with you, Denise. It's a sticky existential issue at the best of times, and I can imagine Hethlin being even less reconciled to death as a gift when she witnessed it coming too soon, and under horrific circumstances, to her parents and siblings.

On some levels, I think she's pretty mature for her age - you don't go through the crucibles she has without developing some sort of understanding about what is important in life.

True. She's not going to waste her time on frivolities. Not only has her more recent life experience conditioned her to be grounded, responsible, and practical (more so than many women her age) she was also raised to value the important things in life.

So, the way I see it, if Elrohir never "grows up," if he remains footloose and fancy-free even after Elrond departs, Hethlin would quickly tire of his antics,and the fact that he wouldn't be offering her anything more than a continuing dalliance.

I could see her dismissing his behavior with a descriptive word like "tomfoolery." ;-) She'd probably be a bit sad for him, too.

But that's definitely not what I foresee for Elrohir. If he manages to resolve the Valinor issue with his father, and commits to staying in ME ... I definitely see him getting serious about making that choice worthwhile, by making serious contributions to the betterment of Middle Earth in whatever time remains before mortality catches up with him. Otherwise, what would be the point of staying? If you just want to hang out and live lightly, why not go to Valinor?

Also, without the presence of a very powerful father and an even more powerful grandmother, things north of Gondor might actually open up a bit for a half-elf who's never really felt the need to be a serious leader.

Of course, all of this is just my conjecture!

And then, there is what I see as her romantic (emotional) immaturity, accompanied as it is by her poor self-image, with scars that go much deeper than just the physical ones.

Yes, I agree with you Denise. It's Hethlin's romantic/emotional immaturity, along with a bit of class inferiority complex, that I see as being a problem.

GwŪdhiel
Posted:May 12, 2008 19:03 GMT  Reply to this Comment
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 [35] 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45

  Post A Comment
A Mike Kellner Web Site
Tolkien Characters, Locations, & Artifacts © Tolkien Estate & Designated Licensees - All Rights Reserved
Stories & Other Content © The Respective Authors - All Rights Reserved
Software & Design © 2003 - 2014 Michael G Kellner All Rights Reserved
Hosted by:Raven Studioz