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Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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448 replies


 [181] dpetrash (or would you prefer Denise?) wrote: Thanks very much for the wonderful new story, Isabeau! Does this mean that Dol Amroth Yule is Hethverse canon?

My main problem with DAY is the part with Elrohir. So yes, the rest is canon-she's going to Dol Amroth. My problem with Elrohir in DAY is that I don't think he can physically get to Rivendell and back in time, or if he can, that he probably wouldn't until his father has passed over the Sea. I do really love the marmalde scene though, so I'll keep it if I can. I might just have to change the time frame, shift his visit to the following summer or something.

I was never sure based upon your intro remarks. If so, was her recognizing and subduing Veleda the important thing that Aragorn foresaw Hethlin doing in Dol Amroth?

I don't think I'll answer that one just yet. Sorry!

As a sidebar, I'm very much enjoying all the conversations here-the Imrahil/Elrohir argument was most enjoyable. I don't think it's coincedence that my muse finally decided to make a reappearance this week. I don't always have time to answer every post, but I do read them all.



Posted:Jan 31, 2006 20:10 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [182]  I'm a sucker for androgynous bard types.

Ohhh you don't mean... Maglor do you? My favorite of the First Age elves!

My problem with Elrohir in DAY is that I don't think he can physically get to Rivendell and back in time, or if he can, that he probably wouldn't until his father has passed over the Sea. I do really love the marmalde scene though, so I'll keep it if I can. I might just have to change the time frame, shift his visit to the following summer or something.

I've always wondered about that too -- he would have had to go up to Rivendell, drop off his bags, turn around and come back down again. I wondered if maybe he didn't go to Rivendell after Edoras but hung out some more in Lorien before heading back down to MT and then DA for Yule.

And I agree about it being more likely that Elrohir would not be doing a whole lot of traveling while Elrond was still in Rivendell. He loves Elrond so much (and vice versa) and wouldn't fritter away the bit of time his father will still be in Middle Earth on things like gathering marmalade. Especially if he doesn't want to go to Valinor. They need to reconcile with each other and come to an understanding, that would be more important to Elrohir than marmalade, or even Hethlin at this point, I'd imagine. Seems more likely that the 3 E's would retreat to Rivendell to come to terms to the very changed world and loss of Arwen. That would probably take a season or two, don't you think? But I love the marmalade! I love the opal necklace! I wouldn't want to lose that! Moving it to the following summer would work.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 21:51 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [183] I would think the Swan Knights would have more problems with Dunlanders.

That's what I was thinking too. And I was thinking that therefore Andrahar, despite his vast experience in stealth, vigilance, and protecting Imri's back, really isn't in a position to judge Hethlin for "letting" Imrahil get shot by an orc arrow. Orcs aren't Dunlanders or Corsair pirates. If anyone knows how to detect and fight orcs, it's Elladan and Elrohir. And yet that wasn't enough to prevent Arathorn from getting an orc arrow in the eye while out in the wilds with the twins. I mean, we the audience kind of already knew that Andra was being unreasonable in expecting Hethlin to have been in three places at once, and anticipating the direction of the orcs' arrows to boot. But it would be nice if that fact dawned on him too!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 22:11 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [184] As a sidebar, I'm very much enjoying all the conversations here-the Imrahil/Elrohir argument was most enjoyable. I don't think it's coincedence that my muse finally decided to make a reappearance this week. I don't always have time to answer every post, but I do read them all.

Oh I'm glad to know that this isn't a nuisance. I do worry about being presumptuous with my opinions and reasoning about different developments in Hethlin's story. I really enjoy discussing things with other Isabeau fans. For my part I certainly don't expect that you'd answer every post I make in these discussions -- in fact some of them were directed at Denise (aka dpetrash), Imhiriel and others.

A huge hurrah for Isabeau (and her muse!)!!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 22:17 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [185] [1 Feb]


Denise said: Also, did Andrahar take Hethlin to Lithabad because she was the only combination of excellent rider and archer readily available? It seemed strange that he would take an esquire to the battle, but then Hethlin has talents unusual for a mounted cavalry unit. He said he needed a blooded battle-archer, but would someone like that also be found among the foot soldiers?

I think it was the combination of battle-experience, rider, and archer with an Elven bow whose string isn't effected by rain that made him choose her.

Imhiriel
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 23:22 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [186] Rebecca said: Yeah, I don't see Elladan & Andrahar getting together... Elladan seems to like mortal men at the height of their strength and virility. And their personalities seem like oil and water. Perhaps Glorfindel (if he's thus inclined in the Unabeauverse)?


Isabeau answered: I will confess, I was tempted to do their dinner together. In fact Soledad would like to have it for a belated birthday prezzie. And I thought very hard about going there. It's just that it's still awfully soon after Boromir. But then, it's Glorfindel...

Personally, I don't see it happen, either. Because of all the reasons you both mentioned, and because for some reason, I see Glorfindel as straight (despite some of E.W.'s yummy pictures). I would very much like to see their dinner together, but with other "vibrations" between them, for lack of a better word.


Rebecca, loved your phrase "the 3 E's"!

Isabeau, I, too, am relieved that you don't mind the many comments. Somehow this journal feels like when you still had your stories up at HASA and had your forum there - that it's not only 1-1-"speak-with-the-author", but a meeting point for other interested readers. And if it stimulates your muse, so much the better!

Imhiriel
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 23:24 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [187] Denise wrote (and it's fine with me to use either name): Though I cannot resist commenting again that any significant limitations placed on Hethlin are likely to be due to having children rather than getting married.

Rebecca responded: Only insofar as marrying Imrahil will require her to remain in Dol Amroth. No point in marrying the man if she's going to go off adventuring for years on end!

Agreed! Let me see if I can coherently describe my thought process (even if the thoughts themselves are not coherent). My impression is that Hethlin will likely have children fairly quickly once she is married, whether to Elrohir or Imrahil, given the high mortality rate of her military career and the fact that she is last in her father's line. Once she has kids, she will be fairly tied down while they are young, for I can't see Hethlin abdicating the nurturing of her offspring to others. Plus, she’ll probably want to be one of their main trainers! Once they are older (late teens?), however, I see either Imrahil or Elrohir being relaxed about Hethlin resuming her military career and/or traveling north to introduce her heir to the Eagles and her northern kin. This is why I say having kids is the bigger impact to Heth’s career. The difference in husbands is that Elrohir and she could then Ranger together, while Imrahil is mostly tied to Dol Amroth, as you pointed out. Plus, as Imri would get older, I would definitely think that Heth would want to maximize her time spent with him. However, at this point she’s interrupted her career for a significant amount of time for the kids, so I’m happy in my personal bias to have it mostly interrupted until after Imrahil dies. (That’s a pretty cold assessment, isn’t it?) And I'm not too worried about Imri getting old and feeble too quickly. Adrahil was hale and healthy at 89 (in Discretion), only four years before he died. Unfortunately, from Late Fragment it seems clear that whoever Heth marries, they have been dead for a while by the time of her conversation with Faramir.

Whew! I too am glad that Isabeau doesn’t mind these forays into abstract discussions about her characters. And I certainly don't expect answers to every question either, or it's about all Isabeau would have time to do. Not that this will hinder me in any way, because of course...

The kid discussion reminds me of further questions. Where is Heth’s daughter in Fourth Age? Did Heth have other children? And did all of them gain her mind gifts, or just the eldest daughter/son? I remember wondering in CMC if her little brother would have had the gift to speak to Eagles, or if it went to the eldest or heir only. Did her forefathers ever have more than one son to carry on the bloodline?

Denise
Posted:Feb 1, 2006 02:28 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [188] Imhiriel said: I think it was the combination of battle-experience, rider, and archer with an Elven bow whose string isn't effected by rain that made him choose her.

*smacks forehead* Of course! I'd totally forgotten about the last item. Thanks! As a totally unrelated but rather cool side note: It's still Jan. 31 here. :)

Denise
Posted:Feb 1, 2006 02:35 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [189] My impression is that Hethlin will likely have children fairly quickly once she is married, whether to Elrohir or Imrahil, given the high mortality rate of her military career and the fact that she is last in her father's line.

Aha! I think that's perhaps one source of our differing opinions about what Hethlin will (or should) do. I don't see her having kids for another decade or even two. I think that "taking time off" for kids early in her career would dramatically reduce her chances of making a name for herself and earning the authority to lead through the merits of her military actions.

Career ambitions aside, I also think that Hethlin is quite immature emotionally as yet, not surprising given her history and all the new information about her family that she's got to absorb and come to terms with. I'd rather see her wait until she's got a better idea of who she is and what she wants in life before she introduces other people into her life who will be utterly dependent on her and the decisions she makes for herself.

I don't see her starting a family, for example, until she has met her mother's kin. I think that she's nowhere near ready to have children. I'm sure if she had them sooner rather than later she'd do a fine job -- but I've observed in my friends that having children inevitably meant that they put things about their own development (career, other long-term goals) on hold. It's inevitable. And I agree with you Denise, Hethlin is not someone who would leave the raising of her children to nurses and tutors. So she would be caught up in the demanding ever-present of small children.

It will be one thing for her to step out of solidering for a while to do that if she's an established, respected leader with successful campaigns under her white belt. But she's not someone like Nimrien, whose strengths lay in sharp academically trained mind. Women can continue to do good work while mothering small children, but the work needs to be able to accommodate the mothering (and vice versa). Hethlin's line of work can't accommodate mothering. And of course Nimrien wasn't trying to make a name for herself anyway (not that we know what she did once married to Imrahil, but I guess I've imagined her continuing on in the supporting diplomatic role we've seen her perform in Ultimatums).

The way I see it, regardless of who she marries, Hethlin shouldn't have kids any time soon if she wants to really make a name for herself as a soldier. Even if she had just two children, one right after the other, she'd have to be out of action for at least three or four years. And really, what mother is going to leave her five and six year old to go off to fight when her services aren't essential (and they wouldnt' be if she'd been out of action for years -- the Swan Knights wouldn't have been reserving a space for her)? If she gets to command because she's the Princess of Dol Amroth, and yes is a trained Swan Knight but hasn't seen any action because she's been raising small children, that would render as useless all her struggles for respect as an equal. Sure, she'd command. But not on her own merits.

Whereas if she takes the next decade or two to establish herself (in Dol Amroth, or wherever) she'd have earned herself a position that wouldn't have her on the front lines all the time, and it would be reasonable for her to be involved in planning, etc. even while not fully active because she's raising small children. She could be married quite soon but delay having children. It's not that I think that any husband of Hethlin (whether Imrahil, Elrohir, or anyone else) would hold her back -- obviously anyone who loves her knows what she's about and that's why they love her. But for obvious reasons she could not put off having children if she marries Imrahil, and I think she should put off having children for a while.

Rebecca
Posted:Feb 1, 2006 08:28 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [190] One thing I will be interested in seeing is how Hethlin comes to terms with her mother's kin. Seems to me that there is some reckoning to be done there. Her grandfather has been a bit of an ass, and it remains to be seen if that's an eduring character trait of his or just an unfortunate anomaly where his deceased son-in-law was concerned. He and his wife loved their daughter so much that they couldn't stand up for her and her husband when gossip started to circulate? They loved their daughter so much that they didn't keep in touch with letters over the years -- so that a four-year silence from Anorien would be noted and investigated in its own right, rather than in passing since Litharel was going to be in the area anyway? They loved their daughter so much that, upon discovering that he has a surviving granddaughter, Litharel skulked around behind Hethlin's back trying to figure out if he wanted to know her? I know she has already called him on that, and he has abashedly apologized. But it seems to me that there's a considerable amount of hypocrisy in claiming that you're angry with your son-in-law for taking your beloved daughter away from you, when you hadn't extended the effort to a) make it possible for them to stay, or b) keep in touch with them once they left. I'm surprised, actually, that Litharel is one of Aragorn's trusted men, because his way of handling family matters seems like a rather serious character flaw on his part.

Rebecca
Posted:Feb 1, 2006 08:50 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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