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Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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447 replies


 [161] hey.
I've already sent this as an email to Isabeau but not sure if she got it, this computers been acting up so much lately i just want to throw it out the window.lol.Everyone is talking about gut feelings, i would have to say my gut feeling has always been for heth and imrahil,and that will never change.lol.I've just never been able to imagine heth and elrohir together in the long run.Also Fourth Age made me realise she couldn't have kids with Elrohir because cousins can't marry and Eldarion marries her daughter. When i asked for sensibility to be sent to me i wasn't meaning to sound nosey at all.lol. It is just that my computer is basically useless now and i need to get rid of it soon and get myself a new one,the problem is i have to pay for it myself and i'm not the richest person in the world, so it will take me a couple of years before i have a computer again, and i will have missed alot.Knowing me i will have forgotten about these fanfics in a couple of years, i have such a bad memory.lol. I just wanted the spoiler so i could look into the future of the story so to speak.oh my god that sounded so presumptuous, and was very bold, please take no offense.

Claire
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 18:53 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [162] In short, Rebecca, I readily concede the merits and validity of your arguments even as I hold stubbornly to my own convictions! *grins*

*grinning back* Excellent, that's as it should be! I just wanted to see the elf get his due here, since it seemed that everyone was writing him off without a second thought. As we know, the choice has been made and so this discussion is academic. As I've said before I totally trust Isabeau to do the right thing for her characters, so that they remain true to the selves she has developed for them. I just hope that there aren't too many male hearts broken along the way!!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 20:29 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [163] Claire said: Also Fourth Age made me realise she couldn't have kids with Elrohir because cousins can't marry and Eldarion marries her daughter.

Just a quick aside: While it is true that in many countries such close relationships would prevent marriage, the same is not true for other countries or other times.

I'm from Germany, and I admit I don't know the official laws, but I think it's not allowed here. OTOH, I'm (re-)reading Jane Austen at the moment, and there are several instances where marriages between first cousins are not only not frowned upon, but openly welcomed. Examples: Fanny Price and Edmund Bertram in Mansfield Park, and (prospectively) Mr. Darcy and Lady Catherine's daughter in P&P.

And think back on all those royal intermarriges happening all over European Courts in former times...

Imhiriel
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 20:30 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [164] I'm from Germany, and I admit I don't know the official laws, but I think it's not allowed here. OTOH, I'm (re-)reading Jane Austen at the moment, and there are several instances where marriages between first cousins are not only not frowned upon, but openly welcomed. Examples: Fanny Price and Edmund Bertram in Mansfield Park, and (prospectively) Mr. Darcy and Lady Catherine's daughter in P&P.

And think back on all those royal intermarriges happening all over European Courts in former times...


Indeed. Keep the blue blood in the family and what-not. I might be misremembering, but didn't Tolkien state somewhere that one of the great things about Aragorn & Arwen's marriage is that the two Peredhil lines were reunited? Perhaps it wasn't Tolkien, perhaps it was someone else's analysis.

From April 4, 2002 edition of USA Today:

Marriage between first cousins, long a major legal, social and religious taboo, is far less likely to produce abnormal children than is commonly believed, a study by leading genetics researchers says.

"Stigma still attaches to these unions," says Robin Bennett, a genetics counselor at the University of Washington and the study's lead author.

"But there's no good social or biological reason that should be. There's a lot of misinformation out there that is really holding back some cousins who want to try to have children," Bennett says.


I actually know a married couple (Indian) who are first cousins. It's not uncommon.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 21:20 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [165] January 31, 2006

For some reason I'm up very late this evening, and just happened to catch "Reparation" shortly after it was posted by Isabeau.

It's an excellent connecting piece, Isabeau. I like Brand a lot; his wariness about men who hit women is both a sad symptom of his rocky childhood, and a hopeful sign of his own character. Although he's not quite right about men hitting women in the face: as Finduilas and Boromir could have attested, some prefer to bruise where it can't be seen. And for that matter, Faramir and Elrohir went for each other's faces during their infamous scuffle. Perhaps hitting someone in the face is indicative of more blatant or passionate hostility? Or less controlled hostility? I wonder what the psych literature on that is -- I'm not well versed on violence.

I get a kick out of Andrahar's ingrained hostility to elves. "Two almost elves," was his grumpy description of Elladan and Elrohir, wasn't it? Although I think I was hoping that after his encounter with Glorfindel he'd be a little more open-minded about Elves in General (as opposed to elves as represented by Lord Gildor).

Most importantly, I'm glad that Andra recognized the need to make amends about hitting Hethlin. I was really taken aback when he struck her like that, it seemed out of character for him, and was just plain wrong. I'm glad that he sees it that way too, and is brutally honest with himself about his possible unconscious motives. I'm glad that the reparation was public; seems that will go some way toward legitimizing Hethlin in the eyes of the other esquires and the Swan Knights. It'll be better if Andrahar doesn't have to directly intervene with the other esquires; if they come around on their own due to Hethlin's heroic save (which seems to be the talk of the town) and the changed attitude of the Armsmaster, that'll be better for Hethlin's chances of gaining their respect.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 03:26 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [166] Rebecca wrote: For some reason I'm up very late this evening, and just happened to catch "Reparation" shortly after it was posted by Isabeau.

I figured somebody would. I just didn't know who it would be.

It's an excellent connecting piece, Isabeau. I like Brand a lot; his wariness about men who hit women is both a sad symptom of his rocky childhood, and a hopeful sign of his own character. Although he's not quite right about men hitting women in the face: as Finduilas and Boromir could have attested, some prefer to bruise where it can't be seen. And for that matter, Faramir and Elrohir went for each other's faces during their infamous scuffle. Perhaps hitting someone in the face is indicative of more blatant or passionate hostility? Or less controlled hostility? I wonder what the psych literature on that is -- I'm not well versed on violence.

Hadn't thought about the psychological aspects. Of course, Brand is not wrong as far as his own experience goes-Jacyn and the others in his circle don't worry about hiding their handiwork because no one thinks it is wrong, or at least actionable. The stablemaster at the inn deplores that Brand comes to work with a black eye, but it never occurs to him to confront Jacyn about it.

I get a kick out of Andrahar's ingrained hostility to elves. "Two almost elves," was his grumpy description of Elladan and Elrohir, wasn't it?

Yup.

Although I think I was hoping that after his encounter with Glorfindel he'd be a little more open-minded about Elves in General (as opposed to elves as represented by Lord Gildor).

Don't think he's got much use for Elladan and Elrohir either. I've been asked to do a one off a la Stud Fee with him and Elladan, but I can't see it happening.

Most importantly, I'm glad that Andra recognized the need to make amends about hitting Hethlin. I was really taken aback when he struck her like that, it seemed out of character for him, and was just plain wrong.

It shocked me too, when he did it. I wasn't as familiar with him then as I am now, he was more the cardboard ogre-figure for the story. But I don't think I'll take it back. I've got enough of the backstory now that I understand that it was a moment of extreme frustration. But I'm glad I figured out a way to keep it and still be true to Andra's character the way I now envisage it.

I'm glad that he sees it that way too, and is brutally honest with himself about his possible unconscious motives. I'm glad that the reparation was public; seems that will go some way toward legitimizing Hethlin in the eyes of the other esquires and the Swan Knights. It'll be better if Andrahar doesn't have to directly intervene with the other esquires; if they come around on their own due to Hethlin's heroic save (which seems to be the talk of the town) and the changed attitude of the Armsmaster, that'll be better for Hethlin's chances of gaining their respect.

I think he's just going to keep a careful eye on things from now on. But he did realize that his attitude was a good part of the problem.

Isabeau



Posted:Jan 31, 2006 06:46 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [167] Jacyn and the others in his circle don't worry about hiding their handiwork because no one thinks it is wrong, or at least actionable. The stablemaster at the inn deplores that Brand comes to work with a black eye, but it never occurs to him to confront Jacyn about it.

Yeah that's the thing about strongly patriarchal societies -- no one is supposed to interfere with the way a man governs his charges. It's a very different social construct than the way modern Westerners in our world think about individual rights. Also makes Hethlin's course all the more remarkable -- in Gondor at least. Perhaps not so unique in the north.

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 07:50 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [168] Don't think he's got much use for Elladan and Elrohir either. I've been asked to do a one off a la Stud Fee with him and Elladan, but I can't see it happening.

No I don't suppose he does think well of them, given that they were on the scene when Imrahil took the orc arrow. What good is it being a 3,000 year-old almost-elf if you can't keep your traveling companions safe from an orc attack? And then there's the obvious fact that Elrohir seems to be an obstacle to Imri obtaining his heart's desire.

How often did orcs come into Belfelas? Do they live in the White Mountains? Do the Swan Knights have much experience fighting them before the Ring War?

Don't think he's got much use for Elladan and Elrohir either. I've been asked to do a one off a la Stud Fee with him and Elladan, but I can't see it happening.

Yeah, I don't see Elladan & Andrahar getting together... Elladan seems to like mortal men at the height of their strength and virility. And their personalities seem like oil and water. Perhaps Glorfindel (if he's thus inclined in the Unabeauverse)?

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 08:11 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [169] I think he's just going to keep a careful eye on things from now on. But he did realize that his attitude was a good part of the problem.

In the long run his intial bad attitude about Hethlin may help her. Even if Andrahar had been equinimious about Hethlin from the start, there would have been many others who would not be reconciled to her, even if they never openly showed their hostility. This way, Andrahar's public confession of wrong-doing and unwarranted prejudice against Hethlin can illustrate for those who object to Hethlin the need to examine the source of their resentment, and to consider whether or not it's really justified. Nothing like an "I've seen the light" conversion, ala St. Paul, or George Wallace

I hope that when Andra tells Imri about what happened, Imri will see the good that can come of it. I'll bet Amrothos already has (Elphir too, for that matter).

It dawns on me just now how much I care about many male characters created (or at least finely detailed) by Isabeau: Imri, Andra, Elrohir, Amrothos, Faramir (not to mention Mablung!). Yet on the female side there's really only Hethlin who strongly pulls on my sympathy. There is Eowyn, yes, and I like her quite a bit. Arwen I like too. And Lothiriel and Lady Tirathiel. But I don't feel like I know any of them very well, and none of them rouse concern in me for what will befall them. Perhaps it's because Hethlin doesn't really interact so much with women, occupying a place in what is otherwise a man's world. The lack of women in the stories is a function of Hethlin's lot in life. The only other woman who comes into focus much in these stories is Nimrien, and I do like her a lot. Isabeau, do you find that in general male characters are easier for you than females, or is it just a function of the structure of this particular story?

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 09:03 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [170] Thanks very much for the wonderful new story, Isabeau! Does this mean that Dol Amroth Yule is Hethverse canon? I was never sure based upon your intro remarks. If so, was her recognizing and subduing Veleda the important thing that Aragorn foresaw Hethlin doing in Dol Amroth?

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 31, 2006 09:08 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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