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Isabeau's Journal
The place to discuss my stories and other Tolkien-related topics.
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Isabeau's Journal

By:Isabeau
 November, 12 2005

OK, folks-this is the general forum now for questions that don't seem to fit in any of the other threads. I'm going to sort some of the earlier posts into the appropriate forums, but it might take a while, so bear with me. I'll delete the ones that have already been reposted by their authors.


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448 replies


 [151] Denethor makes Imrahil promise to bring all of his mounted troops in Discovery. The 500 number I derived from Fonstad's estimation. He also brought 1200 foot. I'm assuming he left at least that many foot in Dol Amroth, perhaps as many as 2000, and he does have his navy to help patrol.

Thanks for the clarification. I totally forgot about the foot troops.

I like the snippet, Forlong seems a very likable man with a good sense of humour ("old Steward Stone-face", indeed ;)), now I'm more sorry than ever that he died in the battle.

I'm very glad you like those two because I was worried they didn't sound Tolkienish enough, but I also didn't want to change them now that I've become used to them.

They don't sound like most of the Sindarin-derived names we encounter in Gondor in LotR, that's true. But I was recently reminded (through stories by Soledad and JunoMagic, I think), that M-e's population consists not primarily of descendants of the refugees, that in fact they are a minority, so there would be many naming-"traditions" other than Sindarin. So if Esteven's father is Haradric, and Liahan's ancestor's served Imrazôr, that would make the names Haradric and Andûnaic, respectively. What you and Soledad created of Haradric, and what little is known (and even less by me, hehe) of Adûnaic, the names seem to fit in that pattern.

re: Elrohir. I like him as well, though he riles me a lot (along with your characters, I guess). But everytime I get really annoyed at him, he has an emotional or philosophical or just plain friendly phase, and I just have to forgive him.

I think he was and is still good for Hethlin at the moment (and vice-versa), but I don't really see a future together for them.

Imhiriel
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 08:01 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [152] Just out of curiosity, what are folks' objections to Hethlin and Elrohir? Isabeau has confirmed that in the Unabeauverse Elrohir wouldn't be very happy in Valinor. Who knows, perhaps events will transpire that will make Valinor much more appealing for him -- like if he meets the one available elleth in Middle Earth that he hasn't yet met, falls madly in love, and sails West with her after Arwen dies. Could happen, right? But as it is in the story right now there's nothing like that on the horizon for Elrohir, so a story ending with him slinking dutifully off to Valinor to fulfill an oath that Elrond regrets extracting from him would be a sad fate indeed for Elrohir.

Which leaves remaining in Middle Earth as an option for him. And if he did, why would he be inappropriate for Hethlin?

I must say that I am puzzled by what seem to me like pro forma objections to Elrohir -- except that he's in the way of everyone's favorite suitor, Imrahil. I know that others see in the story we've got so far evidence of Hethlin falling in love with Imrahil -- but where is that happening? I've missed it entirely. Imrahil loves Hethlin but we've had nothing to indicate that she reciprocates in any way. Hethlin has realized he's an attractive man, but there's a long distance between finding someone attractive and loving them. Almost all of their conversations have been between a superior and subordinate, or teacher and student -- there's lots of warmth, but Hethlin is asking questions and Imrahil is giving advice. Terrific! Important relationship! But love?

Hethlin got it on in Edoras with Elrohir when Imrahil was knocked out in the next room. If she had any feelings for Imrahil in a romantic direction, that would be a very weird thing to do. Granted, he hadn't confessed his feelings for her yet, but it does suggest that she wasn't thinking of him in that way at all. And in the latest chapter of Silver Swan, Hethlin doesn't have a moment's hesitation about joining Elrohir in the fields, nor even a thought for Imrahil. She's embarrassed when she encounters him along with Eomer and the rest of the gang, because it's obvious what she & Elrohir were up to, and she's a modest girl. But there's no indication that she feels torn between Imrahil and Elrohir.

We agree that Elrohir and Hethlin have a strong friendship that is multi-leveled. They've helped each other, consoled each other, and more to the point have conversed with each other privately many times as peers. Despite the fact that he's 3,000 years old, Elrohir seems to have a lot of, for lack of a better term, issues. Feels inferior due to what he perceives to be a lack of gifts that Elladan and Arwen (and Elrond) have. He's still looking for a raison d'etre that involves something besides killing orcs. In that sense he and Hethlin are a lot closer to each other in terms of where they are in life. Elrohir and Hethlin have talked about these things, as friends. To me, that is significant and meaningful interaction -- and I don't see where she's had that with Imrahil. She and Imrahil have spent very little time alone with each other -- they spent lots of time in each other's company on trip to and from Lorien, but almost always with others.

It's not that I'm 100% convinced that Elrohir is "the one" for Hethlin, but as I've said before I don't see why he can't be. The only answers I've received on that front are "he'd be breaking his oath" (which he never should have been asked to make in the first place) or "not fair for Elrond to lose all his children." But is it fair for Elrond to keep his children if doing so makes them miserable? That's fair? I guess I'm the lone Elrohir supporter in this discussion, although it's not even that I support his "suit" because it remains to be seen if he even has one. But I really am puzzled by the conventional wisdom that he can't be the one Hethlin ends up with.

Already I think their parting, when it happens, will be heart-wrenching for both of them. I know I'll be teary!

Actually I suspect she won't end up with either Elrohir or Imrahil. It dawned on me last night who that second white bird in Faramir's dream might be. Not Imrahil. Not Amrothos...

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 08:56 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [153] [30 Jan]

Rebecca wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what are folks' objections to Hethlin and Elrohir?

We agree that Elrohir and Hethlin have a strong friendship that is multi-leveled. They've helped each other, consoled each other, and more to the point have conversed with each other privately many times as peers. [snip good examples] In that sense he and Hethlin are a lot closer to each other in terms of where they are in life. Elrohir and Hethlin have talked about these things, as friends.

Yes, to all of that.

The only answers I've received on that front are "he'd be breaking his oath" (which he never should have been asked to make in the first place) or "not fair for Elrond to lose all his children."

That's not it, definitely, in my case at least.
The oath is a stupid one, on par with other stupid oaths made by Elves who should know better. I'm waiting for a scene where Elrond releases Elrohir from it and apologizes, but seeing as his farewell with Arwen is coming up, I can understand why he wouldn't be in the mood for it.

As to the 2nd objection, there's a bit of that in the back of my mind, but only because Elrond is one of my favourite characters (I had adjustments to make to accept Isabeau's somewhat harsh portrayal of him). But it's not a consideration to me concerning a possible relationship between Elrohir and Heth.

Now, to my reasons why I can't see a future together for them... I fear this will be all rather long and incoherent...

Yes, they can and do talk as friends, and on many levels, what we have seen so far how they interact seems merely to cement this further. But somehow I feel that Elrohir accomodates himself in that relationship to fit, and from time to time, his "true" character, wider experience, and especially different outlook etc. come to the fore to make the gap between them apparent. That's not to say that he makes this adaptation condescending or patronizing, but I can't shake the feeling that this is a temporary thing, that they will grow apart. Not necessarily due to Heth's inevitable aging, but more that their interests will grow apart from each other, a big and immediate part being her education in Dol Amroth, both arms-training and social polishing, coming to terms with her new, elevated social status, and later on, her family in the north, and the eagles.

He is, IMO, a bit set in his ways as errand warrior, restless (and yes, I forsee a big problem should he come to the bliss and peace of Aman). I really do think he needs this relationship with Heth, that she really helped to cure many of his pains and sorrows, and he, too, would need time after Sauron's overthrow to adjust to the end of the war, Arwen's choosing, Elrond's departure etc. IMO, this time of adjustment would certainly be longer than for Mortals, due to his "world" being so far longer the way it was before tWotR and so the change that much more significant.

I think Hethlin will have a good share of that, too, but I think she would want to build something permanent, a home, or, to put it better, a "nest". And I simply just can't imagine Elrohir doing that.

In a previous comment on Jan 6th, you mad a very good argument why a relationship between Heth and Imrahil won't work, and I admit you almost swayed me, because they're all very good points, and I can agree with most of them. But I think I'm still of the opinion that these obstacles can be overcome, and that the good that can come of their relationship outweighs the disadvantages. I guess what it comes down to is gut-feeling sigh...

Already I think their parting, when it happens, will be heart-wrenching for both of them. I know I'll be teary!

Oh, yes, me too! Particularly as I have the strong feeling that Elrohir feels more for Heth that he admits to her and wants to face himself.

Actually I suspect she won't end up with either Elrohir or Imrahil. It dawned on me last night who that second white bird in Faramir's dream might be. Not Imrahil. Not Amrothos...

Not Erchirion, surely? Him, I can't figure out. I get a totally diffent image from the glimpses we've seen from him so far in Isabeau's stories than from Altariel's "Adrift".

Initially, I was rooting for Amrothos, but I can't wrap my head around all the awkwardness that would cause. And now we know of his future bride, so that's that.

And furthermore, isn't it such fun that we're still arguing the old "who shall Heth nest with?"-question when Isabeau has already decided? I like it very much, indeed!

Imhiriel
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 12:32 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [154] Imhiriel wrote: ...somehow I feel that Elrohir accomodates himself in that relationship to fit, and from time to time, his "true" character, wider experience, and especially different outlook etc. come to the fore to make the gap between them apparent. That's not to say that he makes this adaptation condescending or patronizing, but I can't shake the feeling that this is a temporary thing, that they will grow apart.

Yes, I definitely agree that Elrohir's longer & wider experience means that he and Hethlin are not equals in all things. I guess that what we've seen of him so far (which of course is only what Hethlin sees) suggests to me that despite his long life he hasn't really got things figured out for himself -- or hasn't reconciled himself to truths about himself. Or something; not sure. I guess in a way that I'm assuming that, because time just doesn't have the same significance for elves as it must for mortals, Elrohir has been in a state of arrested development for a long, long time. Totally wise and mature and honorable in some ways (trustworthy in battle, reliable on missions, etc.) but still somehow not comfortable in his own skin all the time. Seems like that's why he and Hethlin have been able to form such a good friendship, because despite the huge age gap and his much wider experiences, he's more or less where she is psychologically. Of course he's more self-confident than she is at this stage, and better able to manipulate, tease, and provoke than she is; but she's getting better and better at handling him.

I really do think he needs this relationship with Heth, that she really helped to cure many of his pains and sorrows, and he, too, would need time after Sauron's overthrow to adjust to the end of the war, Arwen's choosing, Elrond's departure etc. IMO, this time of adjustment would certainly be longer than for Mortals, due to his "world" being so far longer the way it was before tWotR and so the change that much more significant.

I think you're right, and the only thing that makes me think that he might finally be coming to terms with those necessary adjustments is that he's been fighting with Elrond about his future for many years now. But I might be very wrong there.

I think Hethlin will have a good share of that, too, but I think she would want to build something permanent, a home, or, to put it better, a "nest". And I simply just can't imagine Elrohir doing that.

Oh really? I can. I think he's more like Elrond than he realizes, it's just that he's been looking in the wrong places for signs that he's like his father. He cares a lot about family (which I realize doesn't automatically translate into a wish to have a family of his own). But I see Elladan and Elrohir's errantry occuring in the context of having a rock-solid family, both in their parents and in their maternal grandparents. It's easier to be footloose and fancy-free if you know that you've got a place to come back to. Compare the young Andrahar and Imrahil on that front. Seems like the only thing that's got Elrohir torn about going to Valinor or staying is the prospect of seeing his mother again. So if he in the end opted out of Valinor, I see him definitely wanting a family of his own in Middle Earth. Just my interpretation though.

But I think I'm still of the opinion that these obstacles can be overcome, and that the good that can come of their relationship outweighs the disadvantages. I guess what it comes down to is gut-feeling sigh...

Granted, and perhaps you're right! But that same reasoning can be applied to Elrohir and Hethlin, can't it?

Oh, yes, me too! Particularly as I have the strong feeling that Elrohir feels more for Heth that he admits to her and wants to face himself.

Yes, I think so too. Which is why I'm saddened and troubled by the idea that the elf gets the boot just because he's an elf. Likewise I'm upset on Imrahil's behalf -- I don't want to see him suffering from unrequited love of Hethlin. I like these characters too much. With Imrahil, my gut says "no" to a romance with Hethlin, for all the reasons I've already outlined. With Elrohir, everyone else's gut says "no." Isabeau has even suggested that he's the biter's bit, and my understanding of that term suggests that Elrohir is trying to make off with something that he's not supposed to have (and ultimately won't). It's the idea that he's not supposed to have it that I object to.

Not Erchirion, surely? Him, I can't figure out. I get a totally diffent image from the glimpses we've seen from him so far in Isabeau's stories than from Altariel's "Adrift".

Yep, that's who I'm guessing. Look at Isabeau's earlier reply to a question about what's going on in "The Lost?" Trouble between Imrahil and Erchirion involving a woman!

And look at how Erchirion started to go after Hethlin when she tackled Veleda (or whatever the pirate wench's name was). He was besotted with the pirate wench. He owes Hethlin an apology, at least. I suspect she'll get it, and they'll start talking more.

When you think about it there are a lot of similarities between Chirion and his father when Imrahil was his age. Sea-loving ladies men, for starters!

And furthermore, isn't it such fun that we're still arguing the old "who shall Heth nest with?"-question when Isabeau has already decided? I like it very much, indeed!

Yes, me too. Again, for my part it's not so much that I am strongly advocating for any one person to end up with Hethlin. Just trying to clarify where the characters are at right now. I think this debate started when I begged mercy for Imrahil to be freed of his infatuation with Hethlin so that he could meet someone else and be happy. After all the sadness and worry and danger of losing Nimrien, fighting the Ring War, etc. I'd like to see dear Imri happy! Likewise, I feel for Elrohir. I hope Hethlin doesn't end up inadvertently breaking the hearts of several of the finest men and elves in Middle Earth!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 13:30 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [155] Re: the discussion about Heth and her potential mates. Some really good points as usual! I don’t think that there’s anything concrete I can offer for or against either Elrohir or Imrahil as Heth’s “optimum” mate. Both in their own ways would be good for her, and I can see her being quite happy with either one, and both being good husbands and fathers (although Elrohir would have more lifestyle adjustments to make). Certainly, I think my bias for Imrahil probably developed, at least initially, from the fact that I felt Isabeau was pointing toward him as Heth’s eventual mate. (I’m using Faramir’s vision in CMC as the main justification here.) Once I got used to the idea, I liked it too much to give way in my heart to Elrohir (or anyone else for that matter). So in any discussion my bias will be showing and thus I don’t know how strongly any points I make against Elrohir could/should be considered anyway.

I think Imrahil is definitely more emotionally mature than Elrohir, primarily because he has seemed to overcome any doubts about his place in life and what his gifts are. I think the point about Elrohir being in arrested development because elves have “all the time in the world” to be a very good point, and if he found himself looking at mortality with Hethlin he would probably shape up quickly.

A thought I haven’t seen voiced yet is that for quite some time I have seen Heth as a female parallel to Aragorn. Being somewhat close kin on her mother’s side and having an illustrious paternal line, it is not surprising they share many strengths. (A side note: Can you imagine what Heth would be like if SHE had been raised in Imladris and honed by northern Dunadain? Gondor would not have known what hit it….) However, to have both of them marry an offspring of Elrond carries just too many similarities, and I would like Heth to make her way a little more separately of Aragorn’s example. Of course, this is primarily a literary reason and not a personal one for Heth.

As per Erchirion, I think that the glimpses Isabeau has shown us don’t necessarily conflict with the nice guy Altariel wrote in “Adrift.” From her intro to “Dol Amroth Yule” (that part of it may be incorporated into the Heth series), I have never considered the story to be completely “canon” yet. Besides, Imrahil was always kind to everyone, even when he was a carousing playboy. And certainly there is previous family example of the right woman turning a Dol Amroth royal around! But I do see Imrahil as being more well-rounded and balanced than Erchirion. (Another side note: Each of Imrahil’s children seem to have inherited and honed portions of Imri’s personality and strengths: warrior, sailor, scholar and compassionate charmer. But Imrahil has them all.) Erchirion would still fit into Faramir’s vision, but I also see it as being an incredibly difficult situation for Imrahil and awkward for Hethlin, at least for the first while, even if Imrahil eventually suppressed/got over his love for Hethlin and somehow found another worthy woman. Not that she couldn’t still cause trouble between Erchirion and Imrahil, mind you.

An besides, Gwaenaur liked Imrahil! ;)

No matter what, I think our dear Heth is going to hurt someone. I’m not going to like that either, no matter that it seems unavoidable. But such is angst.

As far as this discussion ever being pointless – no way! Aside from being fun and helping flesh out the characters for us, Isabeau has admitted to being in the midst of editing CMC. It would only take a few subtle changes to point things in different directions (though she has kept it fairly ambiguous anyway). If you were going to try to change her mind, now is the time! But then Altariel would have to rewrite Sensibility....

One other point I just thought of: Fourth Age does raise another issue against Heth and Elrohir building a nest together. If Aragorn and Arwen’s son marries Heth’s daughter, then they would be first cousins if Elrohir was the girl’s father. Not an impossibility, especially among royalty, but probably unusual.

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 14:59 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [156] Also meant to point out that Heth could be (and I do think she is) developing feelings for Imrahil. For one thing, she seems very unaware of her own emotional developments, and I offer her long-time but completely oblivious adoration of Faramir as example. She cried after Imrahil's proposal, and she left him with "a strange sort of ache" in her heart after the first chapter of SS. And she's said she misses their talks but that could be, deep down, missing him a person. As far as still keeping on with Elrohir, Imrahil seemed to give his approbation to the relationship even after his proposal, no matter what he might truly be feeling. (Another example of his extreme generosity - something I imagine he's reconsidering now.) So Heth doesn't really have a reason to stop taking Elrohir as a lover. Despite my feeling badly for Imrahil, I don't see that Heth should change her life to suit him just because he's proposed to her. I don't think she should deliberately flaunt things that can hurt him, but it's not as if she and Elrohir weren't being discrete that night. Who'd expect a riding party setting out right after sunrise?

Of course, since I want Heth and Imri to be together, all the above can also be considered blatant rationalization! :)

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 15:18 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [157] I think Imrahil is definitely more emotionally mature than Elrohir, primarily because he has seemed to overcome any doubts about his place in life and what his gifts are. I think the point about Elrohir being in arrested development because elves have “all the time in the world” to be a very good point, and if he found himself looking at mortality with Hethlin he would probably shape up quickly.

Imrahil's emotional maturity is one of my main objections to pairing him with Hethlin. If she'd had a different childhood and adolescence, wherein she could already know at her young age what she wanted in life, it wouldn't be a problem to be with an older, emotionally mature man whose path in life is firmly established. But that's not the case. Whereas I think you're right that if it came to that Elrohir would be able to fall in step with Hethlin quickly and they could step into maturity, family, leadership, etc. together.

A thought I haven’t seen voiced yet is that for quite some time I have seen Heth as a female parallel to Aragorn. Being somewhat close kin on her mother’s side and having an illustrious paternal line, it is not surprising they share many strengths. ... However, to have both of them marry an offspring of Elrond carries just too many similarities, and I would like Heth to make her way a little more separately of Aragorn’s example.

That's interesting; hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it, Denise. ;) It is kind of interesting to think about one orphaned Dunedain being raised in the North, and finding his fortune in the South, while another is raised in the South, and finds her fortune in the North. Although apparently symmetry is frowned upon in some corners!

The main difference I see between the two situations, and it would be a small difference I admit, would be that Elrohir wouldn't be staying solely out of love for Hethlin.

Erchirion would still fit into Faramir’s vision, but I also see it as being an incredibly difficult situation for Imrahil and awkward for Hethlin, at least for the first while, even if Imrahil eventually suppressed/got over his love for Hethlin and somehow found another worthy woman.

But it would be awkward for Imrahil even if he did end up with Hethlin. Unless the third chapter of Dol Amroth Yule gets scrapped as uncanonical (and what a shame that would be; I loved the opal necklace and Elrohir's intense love of marmalade), our brave lass has taken another man (ok, elf) to bed under Imrahil's own roof. The whispers, the snickering that would happen if Imrahil married Hethlin. I also hate to think of poor Imrahil feeling old and feeble next to his young wife in another decade or two. Awkwardness would become a constant in Imrahil's life if he ended up with Hethlin, don't you think?

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 15:31 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [158] Also meant to point out that Heth could be (and I do think she is) developing feelings for Imrahil. For one thing, she seems very unaware of her own emotional developments, and I offer her long-time but completely oblivious adoration of Faramir as example.

True about her obliviousness, but I've always taken that as being a result of thinking that Faramir was so far above her touch, both in status and physical desirability, that she didn't let herself even consider the possibility of being with him.

While I don't see that happening where Imrahil is concerned, I *do* see it happening again regarding Elrohir. Hethlin's been merrily going along with everything, telling herself that there's no harm in what they're doing because he's sworn the Ridiculous Oath, and that he therefore does not and will not ever love her. She tells herself that she doesn't love him, either. Yet her thoughts stray to him when she has down time, or when observing a starry sky with Aragorn. She squirms when asked to describe her relationship with Elrohir.

And let's not forget that Lord Elrond is a terribly perceptive person, gifted with the gift of foresight. He has already intimated that he thinks the damage has been done, so to speak, when it comes to the hearts of Hethlin and Elrohir. I don't think he'd kick up a fuss if his son was just having an insignificant dalliance with a mortal girl.

I've been in that terribly awkward position of having a friend profess strong feelings for me that I didn't return. I felt awful about it; it always affects the friendship, usually for the worse. The party who loves has to distance themselves in order to protect their heart, and so both sides suffer loss. That's all I saw happening to Hethlin after Imrahil's proposal -- but maybe I'm wrong.

Plus it really sucks to have someone tell you that they love you when you're still hurting from an unrequited love in another direction. You'd think that it would make a person feel better about themselves, but speaking from experience I can say that it just made me want to kick myself. You wonder why your heart won't just re-arrange itself to fit the facts: X loves me, Z does not. I should therefore love X, not Z. How much easier it would be if we could do that! That's what I saw happening to Hethlin, but perhaps I was reading too much of my own experience into the story!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 15:46 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [159] Fourth Age does raise another issue against Heth and Elrohir building a nest together. If Aragorn and Arwen’s son marries Heth’s daughter, then they would be first cousins if Elrohir was the girl’s father. Not an impossibility, especially among royalty, but probably unusual.

yes, that's true. Until I read that, I'd assumed that it was pretty much a given that Hethlin would end up with Elrohir. I'd assumed that the Imrahil thing was just a little wrinkle in the story to add some suspense, because it seemed so obvious to me that Elrohir and Hethlin were falling for each other. Shocking development!

Late Fragment made me think that perhaps Elrohir does marry Hethlin but ends up getting killed fairly early into their marriage. Which would be tragic, and uncanonical in the sense that if I recall correctly E&E are both still alive and in Middle Earth at the time of Arwen's death.

And then those thoughts got me thinking that it would be ironic if the only way Elrond's wish to have his son in Valinor could be realized would be if Elrohir got killed (without having already surrendered his immortality, of course) and was rehoused in Aman. Totally tangential to this discussion -- but I got a chuckle out of thinking of the look on Elrond's face as the thought flitted through his mind that it might not be such a bad thing if his younger son ended up getting killed. Obviously that thought would be squelched immediately!

Rebecca
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 16:00 GMT  Reply to this Comment


 [160] Although Imrahil is rather set in his ways and has his own destiny at this point, I don’t think he would stifle Hethlin’s development unduly. In many ways, I think he would enhance it. But I’ve voiced that whole opinion before. Also, as Isabeau has pointed out, Imrahil has considerable self-possession and could handle any whispers and rumors about his and Hethlin’s relationship. (And I definitely agree with you about “Dol Amroth Yule” – there are some parts of it that I just love and hope stay in the Heth series, Elrohir’s marmalade addiction being one.) For me, Imrahil’s whole attitude about that is summed up best in “Aftermath,” when Faramir is so shocked – shocked, I say! – that his normally appearance-conscious uncle would make a fool of himself over a young girl and speak blithely about dalliances. And Imrahil responds that he’s had no less than two opportunities to look death full in the face and he’s going to live the rest of his life as he sees best, appearances be darned.

I think Heth does love Elrohir. Whether it’s mostly friendship-love or also something more on her part, I just can’t tell. Elrohir is definitely in over his head, IMHO, thus Elrond’s despair over their relationship – for who could long resist the lure of one of his beautiful children? Surely, in his eyes, Heth will succumb to Elrohir’s charms sooner or later. (Oh, wicked thought about Elrond and Elrohir’s death being best hope for the latter coming to Valinor! Poor Elrond if true...)

In short, Rebecca, I readily concede the merits and validity of your arguments even as I hold stubbornly to my own convictions! *grins*

dpetrash
Posted:Jan 30, 2006 18:15 GMT  Reply to this Comment
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